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| − | If you have questions about any of the pages in this Wiki, you can ask them here. Just click the "Edit" button above and start typing. Be sure to sign the question by typing four tildes at the end of your questions like this: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. | + | If you have questions about any of the pages in this Wiki, you can ask them here. To do that, you will need to create an account, and then click the "Edit page" button at the top of this page and start typing. Be sure to sign the question by typing four tildes at the end of your questions like this: <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. |
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| − | [[Pathfinder Wiki:Community portal/archive|Archives]] | + | ===<i>'''[[Pathfinder Wiki:Community portal/archive|ARCHIVES]]'''</i>=== |
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| − | ==Transcluding large swaths of Honors==
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| − | I'm not terribly comfortable with taking large swaths of honor material and transcluding it into the IA pages. I have one main objection, and that's the header levels (i.e., the number of equal signs surrounding a section name). It should not be the same in the IA page as in the honor page. We could deal with that, but it's very ugly and would make it difficult (to nearly impossible) for a novice to edit. I would like to explore options before we walk down that path very far. I remember seeing an extension I could install that would allow us to transclude a ''portion'' of a page - maybe that would help. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 08:48, 14 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :Yeah - here's the [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:Labeled_Section_Transclusion extension]. Let's come up with a formula for naming sections inside an honor, and see what we can come up with. I'll work on installing the extension this weekend. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 08:54, 14 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | [[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] I just saw this after you commented on my talk. I've just finished the last section of the last section (Guide Serving Others) that could benefit from this (except if we want to bring over Nature honor requirements, but that is not really necessary because the IA provides the requirement directly without calling out the honor. It is really only in the Serving Others sections that specific requirements are called out and that is a mess. I kind of like the way the Requirement displays exactly the same size as on the honor page, but we can easily push it down in size by adding == or === on either side of the template text and excluding the == within the template page itself. For this to work the question and the answer need to be on separate templates.
| + | == Wikibooks Pathfinder Honor Answers Update and Updated Honors Workbook == |
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| − | I don't think making it easier for a novice to edit the Requirements is a good thing. In fact, would it be worthwhile to put the honor questions all in protected pages like the IA requirements are? Maybe a bot could be asked to do that following this formula Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Rural_Development/R1 for Requirement 1 Would that make translation harder though? [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 18:58, 14 November 2014 (EST)
| + | Hello all, |
| − | :I agree that making the requirement easy for a novice to edit is bad, but making the answers easy to edit is most definitely a Good Thing. Moving the reqs to their own page would be a very laborious proposal. It would be nearly impossible to coax a bot into doing that right and could easily make a huge mess. Also, it solves a problem I don't think we have (that is, people coming in and changing the reqs - the NAD was afraid of that, but it hasn't happened here).
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| − | :I have the extension working now. You can see it at [[Sandbox/ComDev]] which is divided into sections, and in [[Sandbox/IAComDev]] which transcludes those sections. We might want to discuss putting the headers in their own sections and their bodies in another. That way we could fix the header level problem.
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| − | :Maybe we don't care about header levels on the IA pages though. The problem would be more apparent if the IA pages didn't suppress the table of contents (with <nowiki>__NOTOC__</nowiki>), but if we take that out and look at the TOC, we'd see that the page outlines are very broken. Not a big deal on the IA pages, but it would be a huge problem on the honor pages (which do not suppress the TOC). --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 19:23, 14 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::Useful tool. In the ADRA/ACS honors and the Serving Others sections there is significant duplication, which I've just transluded for anything called out in IA. Some additional transluctions can be done between ACS-ADRA honors. I can split the few cases where the req and ans and combined, very easy to spot, and remoive any == inside the transluded page. Then we have full control of text size.
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| − | ::I checked and there is no problem with the TOC for the honors with transluded requirements. For example this one is 100% in transluded modules. http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Identifying_Community_Needs
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| − | [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:42, 14 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ==IA Basic vs Advanced Presentation==
| + | 2 questions: |
| − | Issue 1: There are two or three different approaches to sections that have only Basic or Advanced requirement. Which style do you prefer?:
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| − | #The Personal Growth section is a requirement for both the Standard Friend and Trail Friend classes: http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Personal_Growth
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| − | #There are no additional requirements in the Outdoor Living section for Trail Friend.
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| − | http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Outdoor_Living
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| − | #There are no requirements in the Honor Enrichment section for the Standard Friend level. This section is required only for the Trail Friend level.
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| − | http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Honor_Enrichment
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| − | :I prefer the second of these, but do not have a strong preference. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::I also like the second version. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 17:52, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | Issue 2: I can make these lines more generic so they can be turned into transcluded modules which will make translation faster. Ie "There are no additional requirements in this section for the Advanced ribbon."
| + | 1) I have 2 honors workbook, one from 2000 (or so) and one from 2014. However, there have been some new honors added since 2014 (i.e. Mobile Technology honor, in 2016). Is there an updated honor workbook coming to include the newer honors from 2014 onward, such as the Mobile Technology honor (and others)? |
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| − | [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 16:42, 6 November 2014 (EST)
| + | 2) The current Wikibooks Pathfinder Honor Answers website isn't updated to reflect a lot of the newer honors, even the 2014 Honors book. Will the Wikibooks website be updated anytime soon? |
| − | :Absolutely. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | Done and all sections are consistent now. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:54, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :Very good and excellent work.--[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 19:55, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :Wonderful work on adding the new IA templates and really unifying the curricula throughout the wiki. As a user, it makes it so much easier to navigate and understand how all the classwork is really linked together. As a translator, it just simply makes the job easier. Nice! --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 00:59, 13 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :I've got additional work to do in this vein. Don't start translating IA until I let you know IA is all restructured and ready.
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| − | :jomegat how to create a Category or template called "Honors tied to IA?" I'd like to standardize and template how we show the IA connections at top of every connected honor. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::Creating a category is easy - just add it to the page a la <nowiki>[[Category:Category Name|sort key]]</nowiki>. It will show up as a red link at the bottom of the page. Click on it and it will let you create a page (but even if the page doesn't exist, the category will). You can add text to the page. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:24, 13 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::Actually, I think I can automate that if the IA page uses the ay_prerequisite template. If it doesn't, we can still add the category manually. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:33, 13 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :::Nope. Harder than I thought. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:00, 13 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ==Marshmallows==
| + | If we are to broaden our young people's minds and help them grow, us leaders to keep up with the pace and bring everything up-to-date. |
| − | I think any reference towards using marshmallows, albeit for camping or celebrations or desserts, should have some kind of note or mention about using kosher or non-gelatinous marshmallows. If you read the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshmallow Marshmallow] article in Wikipedia (or any dietary article on the topic), under the section of dietary preferences, it mentions that marshmallows are usually made with gelatin, which can contain the hides and bones of all sorts of animals, including pigs. Since the Church promotes a vegetarian lifestyle, maybe simply adding a word like «kosher marshmallows» or «non-gelatinous marshmallows» could be added. Or maybe a link to an explanation? --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 08:48, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :I totally agree! I am contantly astonished at how many Adventists I know, who when learning that marshmallows are generally made from unclean sources of gelatin just shrug it off. The only time I am ever able to find clean marshmallows is around Passover, so I typically buy enough then for four camping trips. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 09:21, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::So then should we simply add the phrase «non-gelatinous marshmallows» or should we also provide maybe a page of explanation. Personally, I would like to link to an explanation, but then maybe I'm just overreacting. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 11:32, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :::I'd go with Kosher marshmallows, and make it a wiki link to a page describing the issues. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:42, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ==Translation Strategy==
| + | Thanks for the reply! |
| − | I've been thinking about our translation strategy, and thought it would be a good idea to share what I've come up with so far. Feel free to disagree, agree, or add to this.
| + | ~ Kris |
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| − | We seem to have a workable approach now that we've learned to encapsulate the translate tags with noincludes, and translation is ongoing at an impressive rate. To best serve our readers, I propose that we focus first on "high value" pages, though I have to admit that "high value" is still an evolving concept. I first assumed that people would be most interested in the Camping honors (perhaps because those are some of my favorites, and I'm merely projecting). So I marked those up for translation. Then I thought maybe some higher-value pages might be the honors that are required by the IA curricula (and the camping honors do fall under that category, so I don't think I strayed too far from that mark). I arbitrarily choose Red Alert, the First Aid honors, and Basic Rescue as the next honors to tag. From there, I will look over the IA materials and tag other honors required (or suggested) there.
| + | :Hi Kris and welcome to the Wiki! Great questions. Here are my responses, you might get other responses from others too: |
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| − | Once we get the "important" ones fairly well covered, then I think we can start looking at the [[Special:PopularPages|"popular"]] ones.
| + | :1) The two workbooks you have, are they from the General Conference or from Advent''Source''? I ask because the GC Honors has not been updated since their last 2014 edition. However, Advent''Source'' prints material specifically for the North American Division and usually has their material up to date, according to the NAD. I would not know when the GC plans to update their material, especially since Andrés Peralta took over as the new world leader for clubs and is still trying to learn as much as he can. Many times the GC & NAD requirements can differ, so that might also be a discrepancy you also see; this wouldn't necessarily mean one is outdated, only that different versions exist according to their region. |
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| − | Of course, we are always free to tag any honor we choose for translation. I just though this approach might be useful. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 19:18, 5 November 2014 (EST)
| + | :2) This Wiki Answer Book is actually the most updated honors resource in the world. It is comprised of volunteers within the Pathfinder community who are constantly updating the content and keeping it to the day. If you are referring to the previous [https://en.m.wikibooks.org/wiki/Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book Wikibooks] version, that is the old site and is no longer maintained. There is a message on the front page stating that it was moved to this Wiki. |
| − | :My thoughts exactly, I mean as in to the t (tee?). I am trying to get most of the camping templates and first aid templates out of the way, since they are used in several of the «core» honors, or the honors that are required for investiture. What I would like to do is first translate the honors required for a Pathfinder to graduate (basic and advanced level). Then, work on the honors that are in series (in other words, have similar requirements, ex. First Aid series, Camping Skills series, etc.). These seem to me to have the highest importance and should be done first. Then work the way down through whatever is left. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 20:56, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::The first aid and camping skills honors are required for the basic level of investiture, so that fits right in. We should probably concentrate first on honors needed for basic level investiture, and then look at the advanced levels. I don't think we need to make a list, but it might help. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:19, 5 November 2014 (EST)
| + | :I hope that helps clarify some things for you. If you still have some doubts, express them here and myself and others will answer to the best of our knowledge! --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 00:58, 26 May 2019 (EDT) |
| − | :::I'm following a list that I created long ago on my website for Conquistadores. If you think it will help, I can post it. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 21:27, 5 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | :::Just a reminder when marking pages for translation: make sure that you are check-marking the box that says «translate page title» so that the title can be displayed in the corresponding language as well. There are a few pages that seem to be missing that checked box. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 02:47, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ::::I have purposely unchecked that box on pages that get transcluded. I could think of no reason we would want to translate those page names since their names would never be seen by someone unless they were editing. If I am wrong on this, please make a case otherwise. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 07:09, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | Great strategy. Maybe we could create a Category for honours tied to IA. I'll keep looking for repetitive stuff to turn into templates. That way the template can be translated once and help multiple honours or levels. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 04:46, 6 November 2014 (EST)
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| − | ==Translating IA pages==
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| − | I've been experimenting with translating the IA pages, restricting my "translation" to copying the requirements from the official Spanish version as released by the NAD. This is a work in progress, and is intended more to flesh out the framework than to actually get a translation out there.
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| − | The IA pages are a little different than the AYHAB pages in that the requirements are ''always'' transcluded from a separate page. This was the allay the fears of the NAD of "random people" changing the requirements. The requirements pages are protected from editing, meaning that only sysadmins can edit them, and "rando dudes" cannot.
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| − | So far, I have found... Problems. First, it looks like the language code is not appended to the page name when the page name has four title parts. Instead, it puts the language code in the fourth position. I will ask about that on the IRC channel when I can (they recommend chatting there during the European day time hours). Maybe Sunday morning my time...
| + | == E-Honors == |
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| − | I am also looking into being a little more surgical when adding translate tags, so that when new translators come aboard, they won't have to mess much with markup. We'll see how that goes. Anyhow, yes, I know there are technical problems with the "translating" work I have done this evening, but that's why I wanted to give it a whirl - to shake out some of these problems.
| + | Hi there, |
| | + | It's been awhile since I have been on here. I noticed many conferences are setting up Online Pathfinder honors (Video/Slideshow) Some require registration and others are being uploaded on youtube, vimeo or other websites. I was wondering what would be the best option to have this linked into a list? Where Pathfinders can watch the video's with the registration link to the conference or something. I would love to talk more on this idea via e-mail or messenger or something else to brainstorm. |
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| − | I also made a Spanish version of the [[:template:Bible link|Bible link]] template. It links to Biblegateway, specifying RVR1995 (the official PF Bible translation for Spanish readers). I have not been able to go far enough with that yet to see if it works, nor am I sure it's a great idea. The only thing translators can change on that template is the version used as Biblegateway's search term, meaning that if Biblegateway doesn't have a version in the language of choice, it just won't work. I don't know if that is going to be a real problem or not. We'll see. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:09, 31 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | This is currently what is available online coming up. |
| − | :Hey cool - it works: {{Bible link/es|Mateo 1}} - and in French {{Bible link/fr|Matthieu 1}}. The hard part was finding out what translation the French PF Bible uses (Louis Segond). The official sources say the French version is NKJV :-/ --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:13, 31 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | [https://kvisit.com/qwI/nvuuAQ Pathfinder Calendar] |
| − | ::Very nice. I have family visiting from afar so I won't be able to work on the wiki a lot for about a week. I've always wondered who does the translations for the IA because I have wanted to point out serious errors in text and translation. I know a big concern for the NAD is to keep the requirements as is with no change, which works great in English where all the officials can understand it, but some of the Spanish versions just don't make sense. Take the example of the honor Whistles - the official requirements have renamed the honor as «Silbatos», which literally means a whistle. But the context of the requirements in that honor are talking really about types of <i>flutes</i>, not blowing with your lips or whistles used in marching. While it makes sense in English, the whole thing in Spanish just makes you go, huh? Many of the IA requirements make references to EGW writings, and the translated references always cite the page and paragraph of the <i>English</i> version. The pages are NOT the same in different languages (and it also depends what year - <i>The Education</i> has two versions from different years, for example). Many of the IA requirements include some portions of honor requirements (like ACS) within their text. The text in the IA booklets do not match the requirements as listed in the honor manual in Spanish. Point being, there is 1) great inconsistency, 2) wrong citations and references, 3) incorrect translations, 4) incorrect names of honors and people, & some other things I haven't mentioned. Therefore, I would love to correct some of the mistakes from the IA requirement translations as I begin to create their Spanish counterparts, but am hesitant because I know the NAD wants nothing changed. Maybe they only mean English? Maybe they'll make an exception for other languages? It would be nice to speak with the actual original translators and explain this to them. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 21:58, 31 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | --[[User:Ixoekea|Ixoekea]] ([[User talk:Ixoekea|talk]]) 22:19, 11 April 2020 (EDT) |
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| − | :::Could you use a {{Problematic Requirement template in Spanish to note the issues like we have in English? [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 00:05, 1 November 2014 (EDT) | + | :We've noticed this too, and we're exploring possibilities. If you look in [[User:Jomegat/Do at home]] we have a list we're building of honors that can be done at home. That index is in my user space right now because it's not ready for prime-time. We might feature the index on the main page, or we might create a dedicated page for it. I'd love to hear any ideas you have - you can just put ideas on this page if you want, or even prototype something in your own user space and we could discuss it there.. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 16:39, 12 April 2020 (EDT) |
| − | ::::I have forwarded your concerns to the NAD. I think it would be OK to correct them, especially the EGW references. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:00, 1 November 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ==% Complete==
| + | :: What I'm wondering is I currently have a facebook group active but the amount of Honor's being videoed by different conferences is starting to become a lot. Like 3 conferences have done Peacemaking, 2 have done firesafety. There is about 20 so far in video's, with this pandemic going for awhile. I could see more and more conferences designing new video's. I know our conference is talking about it. What I am wondering is should these video's be merged into here somehow or would it be best to come up with another site all on Teaching (video's, powerpoint, etc) The video's do have registration links to the conference main site. Maybe link those video's back to here for the honor answer book. I'm just trying to figure out something to merge it all together. I'm open to any suggestions. The Calendar has been the best idea yet for whats coming. But I'm still kinda lost on a video database for the honors. I am thinking of a streaming setup for the videos. Just not sure where to start. |
| − | I've been going through the % complete, adding |stage= to the headers where required and assessing the actual percent complete. For tracking purposes: | |
| − | *I reviewed and adjusted completion % for all the 0%, 25%, 50% and 75% complete honors in this session.
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| − | *I finished off all the 75% ones to 100% that I could.
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| − | *I believe every single honor has the |stage= in the header now
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| − | *Did not check the 100% ones to confirm they are really complete
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| − | It seems to take some time for the database to catch up with the changes. Not sure how long or why.
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| − | *I verified that all honors on the category pages are on the main page list as well.
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| − | To do: verify that all appropriate div tags are on both main and category lists.
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| − | [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:26, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | I just counted up 95 incomplete honors (of 470 total), including the newest SAD ones added. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 04:08, 12 November 2014 (EST)
| + | --[[User:Ixoekea|Ixoekea]] ([[User talk:Ixoekea|talk]]) 22:22, 12 April 2020 (EDT) |
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| − | ==Math== | + | == Online Honor Videos == |
| − | Mathematical formulae are broken at the moment. I'm working on a fix, but it's kinduva big upload, and it's taking a while. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 18:23, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Well, that's fixed now, but is was kinduva nightmare. For future reference, I was able to get it going by installing the SimpleMathJax extension, abandoning the Math+MathJax extensions. What a tangled web that was! If anyone notices any badly rendered math, let me know. It looks good in [[Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Recreation/Physical Fitness|Physical Fitness]] and [[Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Vocational/Electricity|Electricity]]. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 22:46, 22 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ==Upgrade==
| + | Hi all, |
| − | Our service provider will be upgrading the wiki software sometime next week. This is necessary so that we can install the translate extension and then begin to offer the wiki in more languages. I will back up the Wiki on Thursday evening (EDT) just in case. I would also back it up over the weekend, but... duties to my local club call. I will then begin making backups as I have time starting Monday-ish and continuing daily (as time allows) until the upgrade begins. Hopefully, the backups will turn out to be a total waste of my time, but I'm not willing to take that gamble. If something goes wrong, the wiki may be down for a little while. If worse comes to worse, I will at least have a backup of the database and can restore it on another machine. If the wiki goes down, look for info on the [http://www.pathfindersonline.org/forum/ Pathfinder Forum]. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] 23:04, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Very nice, looking forward to it. -- [[User:W126jep|w126jep]] 23:28, 24 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ==Translation Issues==
| + | My name is Pr Phil Yates from the Greater Sydney Conference (where I am one of the Youth Director and Pathfinder Director for the conference). I am so appreciative for THIS Pathfinder Website, it has helped and continues to help all of use Pathfinder Leaders down under in Australia and New Zealand. |
| − | ::The upgrade is complete. I will begin working on getting the Translate extension installed this week. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:45, 29 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::The Translate extension is ON now, and the Wiki is once again read/write. Let the fun begin! --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::It looks like I don't have permission to translate or am not a translation administrator. I'm not sure what needs to be changed to allow access to others to translate. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 17:48, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::::I have now given you "administration" rights, which should give you translate admin rights as well. It also allows you to do other things that you need to be very careful about, including deleting pages, importing pages from other wikis, and blocking users. Use the tools wisely, and there is no penalty for NOT using them if you are not comfortable with them. I have also given JadeDragon admin rights. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 18:15, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::::Thanks, I will attempt to use it wisely. Is there a plan or a way so that the translation doesn't have to be done by approved administrators? We're just starting with translation but I imagine the idea is to eventually be able to have all cultures and languages working on the wiki. There would be a serious limitation problem if everyone has to be approved as a translation administrator. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 18:22, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::::::Once a page is prepared for translation (i.e., add the translate tags and click the "mark for translation" link) then anyone who want to can create a translation in any language. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:16, 17 October 2014 (EDT)
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| | | | |
| − | ::Just a few things I'm realizing as I play around and experiment with the translation extension that maybe you have knowledge about:
| + | I have started Online honors for the Australian Union Conference and am presenting honors for the British Union Conference due to this COVID-19 lockdown everywhere - below is the YouTube Channel. |
| − | :::1) It seems like all the templates will need to be translated as well, or new ones created into their respective languages. While I can change the names for the honors and their category, things like "skill level" and "year" still come up in English.
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| − | :::2) Once there are some translations made, I've gone back to the original page in English, but from there I have no idea how to get to the translated page. Is there a link somewhere I'm missing? Where can I click to get the translation already completed?
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| − | :::I'll keep researching and practicing, maybe I'll figure out some of these things.
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| − | ::::I noticed the Zoo visit list is picking up /en and /es pages as well as the no /page. That could get out of hand. Ideas? [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 14:30, 16 October 2014 (EDT) | + | https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCQLzp8Fp2QbMXY8keb5rrYg?view_as=subscriber |
| − | {{:Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Zoo Visit}}
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| | | | |
| − | :::::I realize now that I've been inadvertently creating pages to be translated to English, which has the language code "/en". This would make these pages show up in the Zoo Visit as well. I went ahead and set the Creationism/en page for deletion, so hopefully it will not show up in the Zoo Visit list once it's completely removed. I also removed the Zoo Visit template from the Camelids/es page, but I'm not sure why it continues to pop up in the list. In the future, this should not be an issue, as the translated pages will work with the translated templates, and shouldn't show up in the English version. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 17:23, 16 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | Along with this I do a worksheet and Certificate, once the Pathfinders have show evidence of completion. |
| − | ::::::Yeah, I think I can fix that. I'll just need to exclude honors that are not "primary" the same way we do that with the honor counts. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 17:37, 16 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | We have found that a lot of clubs across Australia are using it in there Pathfinder Zoom Meeting and Pathfinders are doing the Honors in there spare time. |
| − | I believe the template takes some time to catch up to changes. Jomegat can you do the same exclude thing on the Master Award count main page - the translations have the count up to 27 Master awards now. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:48, 17 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Didn't need to (I think). I just deleted the Master Award pages that had been accidentally translated into English. Waiting for the database to catch up right now. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:16, 17 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::I'm wondering if I should even bother trying to mark templates for translation. The translate tags continue to show up in the English versions of the honors (honors such as Backpacking are riddled with them) but will not show up in the Spanish versions. I do not know how to get rid of them and it doesn't make sense to me why they're there. I think what I'll do is simply create new pages, copy the code to translate, and slap the Spanish extension on it, instead of marking the templates for translation. I'll only mark for translation the actual requirements and answers. I've done this for several templates and it seems to work fine. Any thoughts or ideas? --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 19:29, 29 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | This channel is still in its infancy as I have only completed 5 honors - I am planning to release an honor every week. |
| − | ::::I have been playing around with that too, but have come up empty-handed. I tried marking a page for translation, and terminating the translate tags before a template, and then turning it back on afterwards, but that didn't seem to help. I think the idea of creating new pages probably is the best we're going to do for the foreseeable future. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:09, 29 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | What I have done so far has received great feedback. |
| | | | |
| − | OK, maybe I've got something. In "transcluded" files (and perhaps on templates), we can surround the translate tags with <nowiki><noinclude></nowiki> like this:
| + | Below is the dropbox with the sample worksheet and certificate. |
| | + | https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0marrqlhy2emf8b/AACuCNbWy5kUyQ11S6jmUCCGa?dl=0 |
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| − | <nowiki><noinclude><translate></noinclude></nowiki>
| + | I would be interested in you feedback. |
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| − | <nowiki><noinclude></translate></noinclude></nowiki>
| + | I would also be keen to help you all as much as I can. |
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| − | That way the tags will be active when the content is translated, but not when it is transcluded into another page. The noinclude tag means "don't include this part in the pages that includes this." I tried it on the [[Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Camping/Take pictures leave footprints]] page, and that killed the translate tag litter in the backpacking honor. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:33, 29 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | Blessings to all |
| − | :Excellent. I'll go around and clean up and put those tags in. Thanks, as always, I'm still kind of illiterate when it comes to wiki. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 00:26, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
| + | Phil |
| − | ::I know what you mean. There's a ''lot'' of wiki stuff I don't know either, but somehow, I muddle through. I'll experiment with the behavior of this approach on templates too - maybe it will solve some problems. When I get some time, I'll start marking pages for translation so you can concentrate on the actual translation. I know you can mark them yourself, but I can't translate content, and that would seem to be the best use of our skills. Any "translation" I do will be with the help of Google translate (and thus highly suspect) - that will only be for testing the markup. Thanks for your efforts here. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 08:51, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::i dont understand the purpose of the translate tags at all. Let me know if I can help though. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 14:03, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::Their purpose is to mark sections of text for translation, i.e., translate everything between the opening and closing tag. Once the tags are inserted, you can click the "Mark for translation" button, which will divide the content into small chunks, each of which are translated separately. When one of those "chunks" gets changed in the original, the translated versions are automatically marked as "need retranslated". The problem we've been fighting is that we cannot nest translation tags. We figured out that we can get around this by surrounding the translate tags in transcluded content with "noinclude" tags. You should read up on it at [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Extension:Translate MediaWiki] before doing it. There are dangers! We are still learning the ropes and feeling our way around in the dark. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 18:51, 30 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ==GC vs Division==
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| − | | |
| − | With all these division honors mixed into the Category pages it could be confusing as to where to get the patches. There seems to be two types of Division Honor
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| − | | |
| − | ;a) approved and listed by the GC on their website & publications as Originating in XYZ Division. Advent<i>Source</i> or local conf should carry these patches. In my view these have been adopted by the GC while preserving the "originated by" status.
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| − | ;b) approved at a Division level but don't expect the patch to be stocked outside the division.
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| − | We have no clear way of distinguishing the two varieties right now.
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| − | I propose we split the Category pages into two lists (like we did in Outreach for ADRA/ACS) - General Conference and Division sections. Since there are only 3 Div with their own honors, we can further arrange NAD, SAD, and SAD honors into the three alpha columns with subheadings, like on the Regional index page. We should also consider leaving the "group a) (above)" honors in the GC list and dropping the Div icon as these honors are no longer truly Div honors. Where honors have multiple versions, link from each Div area the right honor. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Very good suggestion. I think this would be one of the better ways to rearrange the main index. I'm not sure what you mean by "group a) (above)" honors, though. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 19:08, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::I would like to explore one other option before acting. There is Yet Another Extension called "Semantic Wiki" which would allow us to turn this site into something more akin to an application than a repository of Honors. We should be able to allow users to customize what honors they see. By default, it would be the ones they can get in their division. For this to work, we would want to tag each honor as "available in the NAD" and that would include all NAD and GC honors, and some SPD, TED, and other division honors. Users who create an account could customize these, and there would always be a link available to list the honors that are available outside the division.
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| − | ::I would rather not break the index into sections as proposed though, as people don't always read the introductory paragraphs (shock!). Instead, they skip straight to the first index they see and if they don't find the honor they're after there, they give up and assume we don't have it. By default, I would list them all, and maybe add a graphic along with the honor insignia if the honor has limited availability. But let's get the Translate stuff going first.
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| − | ::That said, I do support dropping the division icons from all honors that have been adopted by the GC. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 19:20, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::I don't think users will create an account to filter - too complex. Would we need to tag each honor as available in the SPD etc? That is a lot of tagging. If I am sitting in New Zealand, can I get the NAD approved patches? I hope I am understanding this correctly. I'm going to go do a sample page now - we can always undo the revision. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:29, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::I agree that users would probably not create an account. And I also agree that users don't read introductions and skip straight to the list. Also, I believe it's true that the honors adopted by the GC and are sold at Advent<i>Source</i> no longer belong exclusively to their respective divisions, but just shows where they originated from. While we continue to brainstorm, if in the end nothing really changes, I think it'll look just fine with all the honors listed in the front page. I don't think worrying about where to get the patches is an issue, since a page was set up for just that. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 19:54, 30 September 2014 (EDT)<br>
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| − | ::::<br>This past investiture, myself and several other directors from the FL conference had questions and some issues with ordering patches. After many phone calls and e-mails back and forth with the FL Conference Director, we learned that Advent<i>Source</i> is being promoted as the official source and provider for Investiture supplies throughout the NAD and the GC. Except in FL (because for some reason, they have to do everything more difficult here), where the FL Pathfinder Online Store is the official resource for clubs in the state and clubs from FL don't have a code to access Advent<i>Source</i>. The FL Pathfinder Store is actually a branch of Advent<i>Source</i> where they specifically service the state. What I mean to say is, there <b>is</b> a clear way to distinguish between the two categories mentioned previously: if Advent<i>Source</i> sells it, it has been adopted by the GC. If it's not there, it can only be obtained from the respective division. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 20:07, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | Ok that fits with what I guessed. I used to order stuff from FL but they posted that after Aug 1 no more orders allowed for out of state, except for FL specific patches and we had to go through AdventSource. I don't have an AdventSource code (I am not in a Pathfinder Club, and my conf sells direct) so I can't even see what AdventSource lists for honors. So currently I can write a complete answer key for world-wide use but can't get the patch. Here is a sample page incorporating my thoughts http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php?title=Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outdoor_Industries_Div [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 20:45, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :That link isn't active yet. As for not being able to get the patches, I understand your pain. The NAD's intent was to protect the integrity of the insignia. They were afraid that people were just awarding themselves the patches without doing the work, so they asked FL to quit selling outside of FL. Can you talk to your conference youth director and explain your situation? Our conference gives the code to club directors so we can order directly from AS. Maybe yours would do the same for you. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:56, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::Cool. It's active ''now''. Love the made-up honor names BTW. :-) --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:59, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::I guess I should address the proposal too! I like it. I had missed the concept that this would be limited to the category pages, and not applied to the main index. In the old days when we used the 3-ring binder printed version, I never liked that they separated the division honors from the rest (including NAD honors!). I don't know how many times I had counselors tell me that the answers to some honor were not in the book. They were, of course, and as with the wiki, they only looked at the first index they saw. :-/ The more that things change, the more they stay the same. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:02, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::One more thought. Maybe we should turn the index on the main page into a sortable table so that people could see them alphabetically, by division, by category, or even skill level. See [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Sorting here] for info. I always liked the 3-column approach as I thought it was easier to find honors that way (and more compact). Maybe it's time to abandon that. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:08, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::I was talking about category pages only, W126jep may be suggesting the main index page too (I don't have an opinion on that yet). I think on the main index we should use the icons for Div specific (group b) but not Div initiated (group a) honors. Feel free to tweak the working page.
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| − | ::::Sortable would rock - maybe even eliminate the need to have the Skill Level grid at the bottom. Alpha - Category - Approving Entity - Skill Level - 100 px patch? however the more info the more room taken and its a long list. I think removing the whole alpha list and having people use the category pages would also be appropriate. Scanning 600 entries for the one you want, even if alphabetical, is tough.
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| − | :::::I'm working on a mock up in my [[User:Jomegat/main index|userspace.]]. I also had the idea of installing Yet Another Extension to automatically populate the skill level, intro year, originating institution - basically anything we throw in the honor_desc template. I'm also thinking that originating institution and authority are two different things, so maybe we should add them separately. The robot could make the initial edit, and then we could go through and make a list of honors that originated in a division and were later approved by the GC. The robot could then edit those pages to make adjustments. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:44, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::We need an honor for wikibuilding and advanced and (for you) super advanced. Would NH pioneer it? LOL
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| − | [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 21:18, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::The sort list is spectacular. It would help unclutter the main page and keep information "above the fold". The only issue I have with demoting to only category pages is that I assume most directors and Pathfinders don't know how or where an honor is categorized and might spend unnecessary time searching or become frustrated. And I would be the first in line to try to earn a wikibuilding honor. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 21:40, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::I wanted a wiki trading pin featuring the "keys" image on the front page. It would be cool to be able to send those out to anyone who makes a constructive edit. But those cost bucks, and I am but a volunteer. Maybe I'll ask the NAD to invest. It might attract more editors. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:44, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | | |
| − | ==Sortable List==
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| − | Last night while the wiki was read-only, I experimented with my own copy of the wiki on my laptop, basically implementing the sortable index. I guess I spent three hours on that, but the result looks pretty good. When I get home from work, I will upload the new index (and associated templates). As of now, there is a column for "year", but it's not filled in yet. I am exploring ways to make that automatic, by extracting it from the honor's page. I also did work to add the development stage (0-100%) to the honor_desc template, and will auto-extract that into the indices as well (so we don't have to update it in the main index and in the category indices). I've got a proof-of-concept working on the skill level column, but... I'm not sure I like it. The approach I took might make the site substantially slower. But it's a start. Since I am monolingual, I am happy to work on that sort of thing instead of translation. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Sortable list on main page looks awesome. How do we control the stage icon? [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 19:44, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::I'm glad you like it. The stage data is extracted from the honor's honor_desc template (I added a "stage" argument). Just update it in the honor, and the index will get it. Whenever we're ready, we can switch the category indices over to use the honor_entry template too. I don't mind working on that, as it could be something I can program the robot to take care of. But I have to tend to non-wiki things this week, so I might not get around to it for a little while. Feel free to step in and try it out. I will eventually try to extract the year from the honor_desc template too, but the way I'm doing it now does not scale well. It's OK for only five stagesw, or three skill levels, but for 85 years of honor intro dates... that's going to be a problem. I will want to think about that some more before acting. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:36, 5 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | I dont see the year as a really useful thing to sort by except maybe to find new honors. Does anyone say "I'm going to earn honors from 1968 now"? I did some checking and everythings seems good, just the first honor I checked must have had different % between the Category and Front pages due to me not updating it. WAY easier to do the % update on the honor page instead of the really hard to read list! I'll keep working toward getting honors to 100% since I can't translate. JadeDragon
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| − | | |
| − | :Getting the year on the index page is definitely a low priority. The thought was that being able to sort by year would be a good replacement for the "new" icon. Actually... that could be automatic now, just by checking that the honor is in one of the categories for the past two years, and then adding the new icon. Hmm. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:34, 6 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::OK, that was easy. I usurped the "Year" column and made it the "new" column. "New" is any honor made in 2013, 2014, and getting ready for next year... in 2015. Sometime next year we should update the [[Template:isNewHonor]] template. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 22:11, 6 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | <br />I notice that you're making some changes to the Category pages, so just let me know when you think youŕe mostly done so I can start translating. I assume the plan is to use the sortable lists on all the Honor Category pages so I'm going to see what templates really do need to be translated and which ones can be left alone and still work. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 20:44, 22 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Yes, that is the plan. I'll let you know when I'm done. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:48, 22 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::Arts & Crafts through Outreach are done now. I'm working my way down the list, but I'm done for the evening. --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 21:15, 22 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::Nice. I have to manually go one by one with each honor and translate the name, so it takes a while. I'm also adding the names of the new SAD honors, even though I've only added the requirements to a handful. The Spanish lists will sometimes be almost twice as long as their English counterparts. --[[User:W126jep|w126jep]] ([[User talk:W126jep|talk]]) 22:10, 22 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ==Regional Honors Variations==
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| − | When a local conference has an honor with the same name or subject matter as a GC/Div honor - even if the requirements are different, I propose we exclude the regional honor or clearly mark it as obsolete. Examples include Florida's Adventist Heritage,, Ukraine's Feltcraft, Backpacking & Adv, Camp Cookery. If a Div creates a variation, I propose we include it with a disambig page as has been our practice so far. SPD has a few variations we have not covered yet.[[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] 00:21, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :Is it possible to include the different insignia image with the disambig pages? Ukraine has its own images and the FL Heritage Award does too, for example. -- [[User:W126jep|w126jep]] 00:33, 25 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::Sure we can just add the image. would make the page look nicer. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 15:51, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::Once the Translate extension is up, we could select an image based on language. That's an imperfect solution, I know, but it might be pretty OK-ish. FWIW, I'm uploading the extensions now. They won't go live until I can get our service provider to run the update script though. How I wish I had shell access! --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 20:17, 30 September 2014 (EDT)
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| − | ::::i don't see how selecting by images by language helps anything - maybe I don't understand. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 14:31, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | :::::I was thinking that in the case of the Ukranian honors, we could use the Ukranian version of the insignia in the Ukranian translation. I guess there's no en-fl (English for Floridians), so my suggestion doesn't make sense for that case. BTW, there is an en-ca. If you want to Candianize any of the honors (or just play around with the Translate extension). --[[User:Jomegat|Jomegat]] ([[User talk:Jomegat|talk]]) 18:20, 2 October 2014 (EDT)
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| − | Eh, Canadians are not that different! I'll stick to content creation. [[User:JadeDragon|JadeDragon]] ([[User talk:JadeDragon|talk]]) 15:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)
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