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Honor prerequisite

I have unleashed the bot. It is converting all pages that use ay_prerequisite over to honor_prerequisite. When it's done, I will delete ay_prerequisite. Honor_prerequisite uses named arguments:

• honor - the page name of the honor
• category - the category to which that honor belongs
• displayname - an optional argument for the name that should displayed. This is useful for translated honors, as the honor= argument should be Page_Name_In_English/language, while the displayname should be the translated name.

Watch for trouble! --Jomegat (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Nice. I'll be on guard. --w126jep (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2014 (EST)

It's done, and I have detected no havoc. That does not mean there isn't any. I also changed the template:honor_prerequisite/es and everything that linked to it. Even that looks pretty OK, though the robot was not able to handle that, as the bot takes the edit path, and these had to go via the translate path. Dunno if we'll be able to effect wholesale changes like that with the bot. That's something we may have to look into. It also had a spot of trouble with the pages that have been "translated" into English (with the "/en" suffix). I deleted those. I have also deleted the deprecated ay_prerequisite templates. JD, you were battling the bot for a while (inserting ay_pre's while it was replacing them with honor_pre's). But the bot won. ;-) --Jomegat (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I'll check around and see if I see anything out of place. --w126jep (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I noticed the new line does not use the category. That is just fine. Makes translation easier. JadeDragon (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Advanced Honors Prerequisite

I don't think it's valid to say that Antelopes is a prerequisite to Antelopes - Advanced. Just because it makes sense doesn't make it so. The requirements don't call it out, so I don't think we should add it as one. --Jomegat (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2014 (EST)

How about we insert a problematic requirement? Since the advanced star is added to the basic patch, how you going to show you earned the advanced honor only? JadeDragon (talk) 22:43, 17 November 2014 (EST)

That sounds like the right way to deal with it. There is no way to show advanced sans basic in this case, but as I said, just because it makes sense doesn't mean we have license to change it. If we did, no honors would have problematic requirements. ;-) --Jomegat (talk) 22:52, 17 November 2014 (EST)

So is this the only Advanced honors that doesn't request the basic honor as its first requirement? --w126jep (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2014 (EST)

these have the same issue - official requirements don't require basic honor as a prereq:

1. Antelopes - Advanced
2. Bible Marking - Advanced
3. Cacti - Advanced
4. Disaster Response - Advanced
5. First Aid - Advanced No header
6. Geological Geocaching - Advanced
7. Lifesaving - Advanced
8. Paper Quilling - Advanced
9. Ultimate Disc - Advanced
10. Water Safety Instructor - Advanced
11. Some or all the swimming honors - but you can't pass red cross levels without getting the earlier levels or testing out

discussion

We should create a category for advanced honors not requiring the basis as a prerequisite. I could then present that to the NAD for action. A lot of them did not originate in the NAD (but some did), so the NAD would hafta forward that to the GC. BTW, These lists would be a lot easier to read if you used wiki links instead of web links. --Jomegat (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I was thinking use the problematic requirement template and just paste in a standard explanation in it at the top of each honor followed by the ay prereq template. We already provide the answers we feel are right to the other problematic requirements across the project. There is no one that will argue with linking the Advanced back to the Basic Honor at the beginning of the answers, or linking the basic to the advanced as a Sequel and in the header. These are all links of convenience not changes to the requirements.

I agree. It simply states "see also" not "followed by" or "next level". It would be more for convenience. --w126jep (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2014 (EST)

We should submit all the problematic honors together. Dixie Plata (on both NAD and GC Honor Comm) told me they are working to rationalize the GC vs NAD variations and fix any problematic requirements. She asked me to email the details to her, which I'll do when I think we have them all tagged. JadeDragon (talk) 17:19, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Sequential Honors not showing at Prereqs pages sequential box:

(need to check these later - hopefully resolved with addition of templates)

1. Computers (GC) (Computers Advanced and Internet Advanced I think) and Advanced honor not showing in header.
2. Currency - Advanced (Canada)
3. First Aid, Basic (nor in the header)
4. First Aid, Standard (nor in the header)
5. Music (GC)
6. Music - Advanced (SPD)
7. Stars (South Pacific Division) not showing See Also in header-can we over ride?

es pages showing in the sequential honors

1. First Aid, Standard
2. Orienteering

I'm going to have to change honor_desc to take an optional argument for the advanced honor for cases like these where the honor name cannot be computed (can't insert " - Advanced" before the parenthetical portion. Not easy, but I'm sure it's doable. --Jomegat (talk) 14:30, 18 November 2014 (EST)

So then what is the difference between the Honor Prerequisite Template and the AY Prerequisite Template? If I remember correctly, the Honor Prerequisite Template was created because the AY Prerequisite Template wasn't helpful in the translation process. Does this have anything to do the sequential honors and how they are categorized? When do we use one instead of the other? --w126jep (talk) 15:01, 18 November 2014 (EST)

honor_prerequisite was intended to replace ay_prerequisite, but I don't remember what the difference was, or how far along I got with honor_prereq. For now, we should proably stick with ay_prereq. I'll coax the robot into doing the replacement when it's ready. I'll add that to my todo list. --Jomegat (talk) 15:18, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I just looked at every Advance Honor and hopefully every sequential honor. 95% of the honors use ay_prerequisite and I replaced the few that did not with ay_prerequisite. Hope that was correct. JadeDragon (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Having Dixie take a look is a good idea and lends weight to the concept of adding a problematic requirement report to all of those honors. That way we can collect them all in one place. --Jomegat (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/missingprereq JadeDragon (talk) 19:16, 18 November 2014 (EST)

IA Connections

We present the IA Connections in a variety if ways now, so I created a template at IAConnections. It is set so you insert the level and section together then what the requirement is. Next there is a free form field. Given the variety of situations I can't figure how to better systemize it. It does not need to that user friendly since I'll go through and add it to all applicable Honors in one go and then we are good until the IA requirements change. I add the IA logo, however I think it would look nice in a box - don't know how to add the box. See Red Alert for an example. JadeDragon

I've boxed the template - to do that, all you need to do is wrap it in a table and set the table's background color. Feel free to change the color to something else if you want - I borrowed it from the honor_desc template. --Jomegat (talk) 18:40, 15 November 2014 (EST)

Transcluding large swaths of Honors

I'm not terribly comfortable with taking large swaths of honor material and transcluding it into the IA pages. I have one main objection, and that's the header levels (i.e., the number of equal signs surrounding a section name). It should not be the same in the IA page as in the honor page. We could deal with that, but it's very ugly and would make it difficult (to nearly impossible) for a novice to edit. I would like to explore options before we walk down that path very far. I remember seeing an extension I could install that would allow us to transclude a portion of a page - maybe that would help. --Jomegat (talk) 08:48, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah - here's the extension. Let's come up with a formula for naming sections inside an honor, and see what we can come up with. I'll work on installing the extension this weekend. --Jomegat (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Jomegat I just saw this after you commented on my talk. I've just finished the last section of the last section (Guide Serving Others) that could benefit from this (except if we want to bring over Nature honor requirements, but that is not really necessary because the IA provides the requirement directly without calling out the honor. It is really only in the Serving Others sections that specific requirements are called out and that is a mess. I kind of like the way the Requirement displays exactly the same size as on the honor page, but we can easily push it down in size by adding == or === on either side of the template text and excluding the == within the template page itself. For this to work the question and the answer need to be on separate templates.

I don't think making it easier for a novice to edit the Requirements is a good thing. In fact, would it be worthwhile to put the honor questions all in protected pages like the IA requirements are? Maybe a bot could be asked to do that following this formula Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Rural_Development/R1 for Requirement 1 Would that make translation harder though? JadeDragon (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2014 (EST)

I agree that making the requirement easy for a novice to edit is bad, but making the answers easy to edit is most definitely a Good Thing. Moving the reqs to their own page would be a very laborious proposal. It would be nearly impossible to coax a bot into doing that right and could easily make a huge mess. Also, it solves a problem I don't think we have (that is, people coming in and changing the reqs - the NAD was afraid of that, but it hasn't happened here).

I have the extension working now. You can see it at Sandbox/ComDev which is divided into sections, and in Sandbox/IAComDev which transcludes those sections. We might want to discuss putting the headers in their own sections and their bodies in another. That way we could fix the header level problem.

Maybe we don't care about header levels on the IA pages though. The problem would be more apparent if the IA pages didn't suppress the table of contents (with __NOTOC__), but if we take that out and look at the TOC, we'd see that the page outlines are very broken. Not a big deal on the IA pages, but it would be a huge problem on the honor pages (which do not suppress the TOC). --Jomegat (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Useful tool. In the ADRA/ACS honors and the Serving Others sections there is significant duplication, which I've just transluded for anything called out in IA. Some additional transluctions can be done between ACS-ADRA honors. I can split the few cases where the req and ans and combined, very easy to spot, and remoive any == inside the transluded page. Then we have full control of text size.

I checked and there is no problem with the TOC for the honors with transluded requirements. For example this one is 100% in transluded modules. http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Identifying_Community_Needs JadeDragon (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2014 (EST)

http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Health_and_Fitness includes 2 requirements from Nutrition. http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Companion/Health_and_Fitness includes 3 requirements from Temperance http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Explorer/Health_and_Fitness include a requirement for Christian Grooming and Manners The answers are not synced at all. Can you translude them Jomegat? JadeDragon (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (EST)

I sectionized Nutrition and included it in Friend. I'll work on Temperance & Grooming next. It's not that hard. --Jomegat (talk) 18:43, 15 November 2014 (EST)

Still to do - all Nature Study IA vs honor translutions. Just making a note so we remember. JadeDragon (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2014 (EST)

IA Basic vs Advanced Presentation

Issue 1: There are two or three different approaches to sections that have only Basic or Advanced requirement. Which style do you prefer?:

1. The Personal Growth section is a requirement for both the Standard Friend and Trail Friend classes: http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Personal_Growth
2. There are no additional requirements in the Outdoor Living section for Trail Friend.

http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Outdoor_Living

1. There are no requirements in the Honor Enrichment section for the Standard Friend level. This section is required only for the Trail Friend level.

http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Investiture_Achievement/Friend/Honor_Enrichment

I prefer the second of these, but do not have a strong preference. --Jomegat (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)

I also like the second version. --w126jep (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Issue 2: I can make these lines more generic so they can be turned into transcluded modules which will make translation faster. Ie "There are no additional requirements in this section for the Advanced ribbon."

JadeDragon (talk) 16:42, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Absolutely. --Jomegat (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Done and all sections are consistent now. JadeDragon (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Very good and excellent work.--w126jep (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Wonderful work on adding the new IA templates and really unifying the curricula throughout the wiki. As a user, it makes it so much easier to navigate and understand how all the classwork is really linked together. As a translator, it just simply makes the job easier. Nice! --w126jep (talk) 00:59, 13 November 2014 (EST)

I've got additional work to do in this vein. Don't start translating IA until I let you know IA is all restructured and ready.

jomegat how to create a Category or template called "Honors tied to IA?" I'd like to standardize and template how we show the IA connections at top of every connected honor. JadeDragon (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Creating a category is easy - just add it to the page a la [[Category:Category Name|sort key]]. It will show up as a red link at the bottom of the page. Click on it and it will let you create a page (but even if the page doesn't exist, the category will). You can add text to the page. --Jomegat (talk) 20:24, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Actually, I think I can automate that if the IA page uses the ay_prerequisite template. If it doesn't, we can still add the category manually. --Jomegat (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Nope. Harder than I thought. --Jomegat (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Marshmallows

I think any reference towards using marshmallows, albeit for camping or celebrations or desserts, should have some kind of note or mention about using kosher or non-gelatinous marshmallows. If you read the Marshmallow article in Wikipedia (or any dietary article on the topic), under the section of dietary preferences, it mentions that marshmallows are usually made with gelatin, which can contain the hides and bones of all sorts of animals, including pigs. Since the Church promotes a vegetarian lifestyle, maybe simply adding a word like «kosher marshmallows» or «non-gelatinous marshmallows» could be added. Or maybe a link to an explanation? --w126jep (talk) 08:48, 6 November 2014 (EST)

I totally agree! I am contantly astonished at how many Adventists I know, who when learning that marshmallows are generally made from unclean sources of gelatin just shrug it off. The only time I am ever able to find clean marshmallows is around Passover, so I typically buy enough then for four camping trips. --Jomegat (talk) 09:21, 6 November 2014 (EST)

So then should we simply add the phrase «non-gelatinous marshmallows» or should we also provide maybe a page of explanation. Personally, I would like to link to an explanation, but then maybe I'm just overreacting. --w126jep (talk) 11:32, 6 November 2014 (EST)

I'd go with Kosher marshmallows, and make it a wiki link to a page describing the issues. --Jomegat (talk) 17:42, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Translation Strategy

I've been thinking about our translation strategy, and thought it would be a good idea to share what I've come up with so far. Feel free to disagree, agree, or add to this.

We seem to have a workable approach now that we've learned to encapsulate the translate tags with noincludes, and translation is ongoing at an impressive rate. To best serve our readers, I propose that we focus first on "high value" pages, though I have to admit that "high value" is still an evolving concept. I first assumed that people would be most interested in the Camping honors (perhaps because those are some of my favorites, and I'm merely projecting). So I marked those up for translation. Then I thought maybe some higher-value pages might be the honors that are required by the IA curricula (and the camping honors do fall under that category, so I don't think I strayed too far from that mark). I arbitrarily choose Red Alert, the First Aid honors, and Basic Rescue as the next honors to tag. From there, I will look over the IA materials and tag other honors required (or suggested) there.

Once we get the "important" ones fairly well covered, then I think we can start looking at the "popular" ones.

Of course, we are always free to tag any honor we choose for translation. I just though this approach might be useful. --Jomegat (talk) 19:18, 5 November 2014 (EST)

My thoughts exactly, I mean as in to the t (tee?). I am trying to get most of the camping templates and first aid templates out of the way, since they are used in several of the «core» honors, or the honors that are required for investiture. What I would like to do is first translate the honors required for a Pathfinder to graduate (basic and advanced level). Then, work on the honors that are in series (in other words, have similar requirements, ex. First Aid series, Camping Skills series, etc.). These seem to me to have the highest importance and should be done first. Then work the way down through whatever is left. --w126jep (talk) 20:56, 5 November 2014 (EST)

The first aid and camping skills honors are required for the basic level of investiture, so that fits right in. We should probably concentrate first on honors needed for basic level investiture, and then look at the advanced levels. I don't think we need to make a list, but it might help. --Jomegat (talk) 21:19, 5 November 2014 (EST)

I'm following a list that I created long ago on my website for Conquistadores. If you think it will help, I can post it. --w126jep (talk) 21:27, 5 November 2014 (EST)

Just a reminder when marking pages for translation: make sure that you are check-marking the box that says «translate page title» so that the title can be displayed in the corresponding language as well. There are a few pages that seem to be missing that checked box. --w126jep (talk) 02:47, 6 November 2014 (EST)

I have purposely unchecked that box on pages that get transcluded. I could think of no reason we would want to translate those page names since their names would never be seen by someone unless they were editing. If I am wrong on this, please make a case otherwise. --Jomegat (talk) 07:09, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Great strategy. Maybe we could create a Category for honours tied to IA. I'll keep looking for repetitive stuff to turn into templates. That way the template can be translated once and help multiple honours or levels. JadeDragon (talk) 04:46, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Translating IA pages

I've been experimenting with translating the IA pages, restricting my "translation" to copying the requirements from the official Spanish version as released by the NAD. This is a work in progress, and is intended more to flesh out the framework than to actually get a translation out there.

The IA pages are a little different than the AYHAB pages in that the requirements are always transcluded from a separate page. This was the allay the fears of the NAD of "random people" changing the requirements. The requirements pages are protected from editing, meaning that only sysadmins can edit them, and "rando dudes" cannot.

So far, I have found... Problems. First, it looks like the language code is not appended to the page name when the page name has four title parts. Instead, it puts the language code in the fourth position. I will ask about that on the IRC channel when I can (they recommend chatting there during the European day time hours). Maybe Sunday morning my time...

I am also looking into being a little more surgical when adding translate tags, so that when new translators come aboard, they won't have to mess much with markup. We'll see how that goes. Anyhow, yes, I know there are technical problems with the "translating" work I have done this evening, but that's why I wanted to give it a whirl - to shake out some of these problems.

I also made a Spanish version of the Bible link template. It links to Biblegateway, specifying RVR1995 (the official PF Bible translation for Spanish readers). I have not been able to go far enough with that yet to see if it works, nor am I sure it's a great idea. The only thing translators can change on that template is the version used as Biblegateway's search term, meaning that if Biblegateway doesn't have a version in the language of choice, it just won't work. I don't know if that is going to be a real problem or not. We'll see. --Jomegat (talk) 20:09, 31 October 2014 (EDT)

Hey cool - it works: Template:Bible link/es - and in French Template:Bible link/fr. The hard part was finding out what translation the French PF Bible uses (Louis Segond). The official sources say the French version is NKJV :-/ --Jomegat (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2014 (EDT)

Very nice. I have family visiting from afar so I won't be able to work on the wiki a lot for about a week. I've always wondered who does the translations for the IA because I have wanted to point out serious errors in text and translation. I know a big concern for the NAD is to keep the requirements as is with no change, which works great in English where all the officials can understand it, but some of the Spanish versions just don't make sense. Take the example of the honor Whistles - the official requirements have renamed the honor as «Silbatos», which literally means a whistle. But the context of the requirements in that honor are talking really about types of flutes, not blowing with your lips or whistles used in marching. While it makes sense in English, the whole thing in Spanish just makes you go, huh? Many of the IA requirements make references to EGW writings, and the translated references always cite the page and paragraph of the English version. The pages are NOT the same in different languages (and it also depends what year - The Education has two versions from different years, for example). Many of the IA requirements include some portions of honor requirements (like ACS) within their text. The text in the IA booklets do not match the requirements as listed in the honor manual in Spanish. Point being, there is 1) great inconsistency, 2) wrong citations and references, 3) incorrect translations, 4) incorrect names of honors and people, & some other things I haven't mentioned. Therefore, I would love to correct some of the mistakes from the IA requirement translations as I begin to create their Spanish counterparts, but am hesitant because I know the NAD wants nothing changed. Maybe they only mean English? Maybe they'll make an exception for other languages? It would be nice to speak with the actual original translators and explain this to them. --w126jep (talk) 21:58, 31 October 2014 (EDT)

Could you use a {{Problematic Requirement template in Spanish to note the issues like we have in English? JadeDragon (talk) 00:05, 1 November 2014 (EDT)

I have forwarded your concerns to the NAD. I think it would be OK to correct them, especially the EGW references. --Jomegat (talk) 17:00, 1 November 2014 (EDT)

% Complete

I've been going through the % complete, adding |stage= to the headers where required and assessing the actual percent complete. For tracking purposes:

• I reviewed and adjusted completion % for all the 0%, 25%, 50% and 75% complete honors in this session.
• I finished off all the 75% ones to 100% that I could.
• I believe every single honor has the |stage= in the header now
• Did not check the 100% ones to confirm they are really complete

It seems to take some time for the database to catch up with the changes. Not sure how long or why.

• I verified that all honors on the category pages are on the main page list as well.

To do: verify that all appropriate div tags are on both main and category lists. JadeDragon (talk) 19:26, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

I just counted up 95 incomplete honors (of 470 total), including the newest SAD ones added. JadeDragon (talk) 04:08, 12 November 2014 (EST)

Math

Mathematical formulae are broken at the moment. I'm working on a fix, but it's kinduva big upload, and it's taking a while. --Jomegat (talk) 18:23, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Well, that's fixed now, but is was kinduva nightmare. For future reference, I was able to get it going by installing the SimpleMathJax extension, abandoning the Math+MathJax extensions. What a tangled web that was! If anyone notices any badly rendered math, let me know. It looks good in Physical Fitness and Electricity. --Jomegat (talk) 22:46, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Upgrade

Our service provider will be upgrading the wiki software sometime next week. This is necessary so that we can install the translate extension and then begin to offer the wiki in more languages. I will back up the Wiki on Thursday evening (EDT) just in case. I would also back it up over the weekend, but... duties to my local club call. I will then begin making backups as I have time starting Monday-ish and continuing daily (as time allows) until the upgrade begins. Hopefully, the backups will turn out to be a total waste of my time, but I'm not willing to take that gamble. If something goes wrong, the wiki may be down for a little while. If worse comes to worse, I will at least have a backup of the database and can restore it on another machine. If the wiki goes down, look for info on the Pathfinder Forum. --Jomegat 23:04, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

Very nice, looking forward to it. -- w126jep 23:28, 24 September 2014 (EDT)

Translation Issues

The upgrade is complete. I will begin working on getting the Translate extension installed this week. --Jomegat (talk) 17:45, 29 September 2014 (EDT)

The Translate extension is ON now, and the Wiki is once again read/write. Let the fun begin! --Jomegat (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

It looks like I don't have permission to translate or am not a translation administrator. I'm not sure what needs to be changed to allow access to others to translate. --w126jep (talk) 17:48, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

I have now given you "administration" rights, which should give you translate admin rights as well. It also allows you to do other things that you need to be very careful about, including deleting pages, importing pages from other wikis, and blocking users. Use the tools wisely, and there is no penalty for NOT using them if you are not comfortable with them. I have also given JadeDragon admin rights. --Jomegat (talk) 18:15, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Thanks, I will attempt to use it wisely. Is there a plan or a way so that the translation doesn't have to be done by approved administrators? We're just starting with translation but I imagine the idea is to eventually be able to have all cultures and languages working on the wiki. There would be a serious limitation problem if everyone has to be approved as a translation administrator. --w126jep (talk) 18:22, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Once a page is prepared for translation (i.e., add the translate tags and click the "mark for translation" link) then anyone who want to can create a translation in any language. --Jomegat (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2014 (EDT)

Just a few things I'm realizing as I play around and experiment with the translation extension that maybe you have knowledge about:

1) It seems like all the templates will need to be translated as well, or new ones created into their respective languages. While I can change the names for the honors and their category, things like "skill level" and "year" still come up in English.

2) Once there are some translations made, I've gone back to the original page in English, but from there I have no idea how to get to the translated page. Is there a link somewhere I'm missing? Where can I click to get the translation already completed?

I'll keep researching and practicing, maybe I'll figure out some of these things.

I noticed the Zoo visit list is picking up /en and /es pages as well as the no /page. That could get out of hand. Ideas? JadeDragon (talk) 14:30, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Zoo Visit

I realize now that I've been inadvertently creating pages to be translated to English, which has the language code "/en". This would make these pages show up in the Zoo Visit as well. I went ahead and set the Creationism/en page for deletion, so hopefully it will not show up in the Zoo Visit list once it's completely removed. I also removed the Zoo Visit template from the Camelids/es page, but I'm not sure why it continues to pop up in the list. In the future, this should not be an issue, as the translated pages will work with the translated templates, and shouldn't show up in the English version. --w126jep (talk) 17:23, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

Yeah, I think I can fix that. I'll just need to exclude honors that are not "primary" the same way we do that with the honor counts. --Jomegat (talk) 17:37, 16 October 2014 (EDT)

I believe the template takes some time to catch up to changes. Jomegat can you do the same exclude thing on the Master Award count main page - the translations have the count up to 27 Master awards now. JadeDragon (talk) 19:48, 17 October 2014 (EDT)

Didn't need to (I think). I just deleted the Master Award pages that had been accidentally translated into English. Waiting for the database to catch up right now. --Jomegat (talk) 21:16, 17 October 2014 (EDT)

I'm wondering if I should even bother trying to mark templates for translation. The translate tags continue to show up in the English versions of the honors (honors such as Backpacking are riddled with them) but will not show up in the Spanish versions. I do not know how to get rid of them and it doesn't make sense to me why they're there. I think what I'll do is simply create new pages, copy the code to translate, and slap the Spanish extension on it, instead of marking the templates for translation. I'll only mark for translation the actual requirements and answers. I've done this for several templates and it seems to work fine. Any thoughts or ideas? --w126jep (talk) 19:29, 29 October 2014 (EDT)

I have been playing around with that too, but have come up empty-handed. I tried marking a page for translation, and terminating the translate tags before a template, and then turning it back on afterwards, but that didn't seem to help. I think the idea of creating new pages probably is the best we're going to do for the foreseeable future. --Jomegat (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2014 (EDT)

OK, maybe I've got something. In "transcluded" files (and perhaps on templates), we can surround the translate tags with <noinclude> like this:

<noinclude><translate></noinclude>

<noinclude></translate></noinclude>

That way the tags will be active when the content is translated, but not when it is transcluded into another page. The noinclude tag means "don't include this part in the pages that includes this." I tried it on the Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Camping/Take pictures leave footprints page, and that killed the translate tag litter in the backpacking honor. --Jomegat (talk) 21:33, 29 October 2014 (EDT)

Excellent. I'll go around and clean up and put those tags in. Thanks, as always, I'm still kind of illiterate when it comes to wiki. --w126jep (talk) 00:26, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

I know what you mean. There's a lot of wiki stuff I don't know either, but somehow, I muddle through. I'll experiment with the behavior of this approach on templates too - maybe it will solve some problems. When I get some time, I'll start marking pages for translation so you can concentrate on the actual translation. I know you can mark them yourself, but I can't translate content, and that would seem to be the best use of our skills. Any "translation" I do will be with the help of Google translate (and thus highly suspect) - that will only be for testing the markup. Thanks for your efforts here. --Jomegat (talk) 08:51, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

i dont understand the purpose of the translate tags at all. Let me know if I can help though. JadeDragon (talk) 14:03, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

Their purpose is to mark sections of text for translation, i.e., translate everything between the opening and closing tag. Once the tags are inserted, you can click the "Mark for translation" button, which will divide the content into small chunks, each of which are translated separately. When one of those "chunks" gets changed in the original, the translated versions are automatically marked as "need retranslated". The problem we've been fighting is that we cannot nest translation tags. We figured out that we can get around this by surrounding the translate tags in transcluded content with "noinclude" tags. You should read up on it at MediaWiki before doing it. There are dangers! We are still learning the ropes and feeling our way around in the dark. --Jomegat (talk) 18:51, 30 October 2014 (EDT)

GC vs Division

With all these division honors mixed into the Category pages it could be confusing as to where to get the patches. There seems to be two types of Division Honor

a) approved and listed by the GC on their website & publications as Originating in XYZ Division. AdventSource or local conf should carry these patches. In my view these have been adopted by the GC while preserving the "originated by" status.

b) approved at a Division level but don't expect the patch to be stocked outside the division.

We have no clear way of distinguishing the two varieties right now.

I propose we split the Category pages into two lists (like we did in Outreach for ADRA/ACS) - General Conference and Division sections. Since there are only 3 Div with their own honors, we can further arrange NAD, SAD, and SAD honors into the three alpha columns with subheadings, like on the Regional index page. We should also consider leaving the "group a) (above)" honors in the GC list and dropping the Div icon as these honors are no longer truly Div honors. Where honors have multiple versions, link from each Div area the right honor. JadeDragon (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

Very good suggestion. I think this would be one of the better ways to rearrange the main index. I'm not sure what you mean by "group a) (above)" honors, though. --w126jep (talk) 19:08, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I would like to explore one other option before acting. There is Yet Another Extension called "Semantic Wiki" which would allow us to turn this site into something more akin to an application than a repository of Honors. We should be able to allow users to customize what honors they see. By default, it would be the ones they can get in their division. For this to work, we would want to tag each honor as "available in the NAD" and that would include all NAD and GC honors, and some SPD, TED, and other division honors. Users who create an account could customize these, and there would always be a link available to list the honors that are available outside the division.

I would rather not break the index into sections as proposed though, as people don't always read the introductory paragraphs (shock!). Instead, they skip straight to the first index they see and if they don't find the honor they're after there, they give up and assume we don't have it. By default, I would list them all, and maybe add a graphic along with the honor insignia if the honor has limited availability. But let's get the Translate stuff going first.

That said, I do support dropping the division icons from all honors that have been adopted by the GC. --Jomegat (talk) 19:20, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I don't think users will create an account to filter - too complex. Would we need to tag each honor as available in the SPD etc? That is a lot of tagging. If I am sitting in New Zealand, can I get the NAD approved patches? I hope I am understanding this correctly. I'm going to go do a sample page now - we can always undo the revision. JadeDragon (talk) 19:29, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I agree that users would probably not create an account. And I also agree that users don't read introductions and skip straight to the list. Also, I believe it's true that the honors adopted by the GC and are sold at AdventSource no longer belong exclusively to their respective divisions, but just shows where they originated from. While we continue to brainstorm, if in the end nothing really changes, I think it'll look just fine with all the honors listed in the front page. I don't think worrying about where to get the patches is an issue, since a page was set up for just that. --w126jep (talk) 19:54, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

This past investiture, myself and several other directors from the FL conference had questions and some issues with ordering patches. After many phone calls and e-mails back and forth with the FL Conference Director, we learned that AdventSource is being promoted as the official source and provider for Investiture supplies throughout the NAD and the GC. Except in FL (because for some reason, they have to do everything more difficult here), where the FL Pathfinder Online Store is the official resource for clubs in the state and clubs from FL don't have a code to access AdventSource. The FL Pathfinder Store is actually a branch of AdventSource where they specifically service the state. What I mean to say is, there is a clear way to distinguish between the two categories mentioned previously: if AdventSource sells it, it has been adopted by the GC. If it's not there, it can only be obtained from the respective division. --w126jep (talk) 20:07, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

Ok that fits with what I guessed. I used to order stuff from FL but they posted that after Aug 1 no more orders allowed for out of state, except for FL specific patches and we had to go through AdventSource. I don't have an AdventSource code (I am not in a Pathfinder Club, and my conf sells direct) so I can't even see what AdventSource lists for honors. So currently I can write a complete answer key for world-wide use but can't get the patch. Here is a sample page incorporating my thoughts http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php?title=Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outdoor_Industries_Div JadeDragon (talk) 20:45, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

That link isn't active yet. As for not being able to get the patches, I understand your pain. The NAD's intent was to protect the integrity of the insignia. They were afraid that people were just awarding themselves the patches without doing the work, so they asked FL to quit selling outside of FL. Can you talk to your conference youth director and explain your situation? Our conference gives the code to club directors so we can order directly from AS. Maybe yours would do the same for you. --Jomegat (talk) 20:56, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

Cool. It's active now. Love the made-up honor names BTW. :-) --Jomegat (talk) 20:59, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I guess I should address the proposal too! I like it. I had missed the concept that this would be limited to the category pages, and not applied to the main index. In the old days when we used the 3-ring binder printed version, I never liked that they separated the division honors from the rest (including NAD honors!). I don't know how many times I had counselors tell me that the answers to some honor were not in the book. They were, of course, and as with the wiki, they only looked at the first index they saw. :-/ The more that things change, the more they stay the same. --Jomegat (talk) 21:02, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

One more thought. Maybe we should turn the index on the main page into a sortable table so that people could see them alphabetically, by division, by category, or even skill level. See here for info. I always liked the 3-column approach as I thought it was easier to find honors that way (and more compact). Maybe it's time to abandon that. --Jomegat (talk) 21:08, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I was talking about category pages only, W126jep may be suggesting the main index page too (I don't have an opinion on that yet). I think on the main index we should use the icons for Div specific (group b) but not Div initiated (group a) honors. Feel free to tweak the working page.

Sortable would rock - maybe even eliminate the need to have the Skill Level grid at the bottom. Alpha - Category - Approving Entity - Skill Level - 100 px patch? however the more info the more room taken and its a long list. I think removing the whole alpha list and having people use the category pages would also be appropriate. Scanning 600 entries for the one you want, even if alphabetical, is tough.

I'm working on a mock up in my userspace.. I also had the idea of installing Yet Another Extension to automatically populate the skill level, intro year, originating institution - basically anything we throw in the honor_desc template. I'm also thinking that originating institution and authority are two different things, so maybe we should add them separately. The robot could make the initial edit, and then we could go through and make a list of honors that originated in a division and were later approved by the GC. The robot could then edit those pages to make adjustments. --Jomegat (talk) 21:44, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

We need an honor for wikibuilding and advanced and (for you) super advanced. Would NH pioneer it? LOL

JadeDragon (talk) 21:18, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

The sort list is spectacular. It would help unclutter the main page and keep information "above the fold". The only issue I have with demoting to only category pages is that I assume most directors and Pathfinders don't know how or where an honor is categorized and might spend unnecessary time searching or become frustrated. And I would be the first in line to try to earn a wikibuilding honor. --w126jep (talk) 21:40, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

I wanted a wiki trading pin featuring the "keys" image on the front page. It would be cool to be able to send those out to anyone who makes a constructive edit. But those cost bucks, and I am but a volunteer. Maybe I'll ask the NAD to invest. It might attract more editors. --Jomegat (talk) 21:44, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

Sortable List

Last night while the wiki was read-only, I experimented with my own copy of the wiki on my laptop, basically implementing the sortable index. I guess I spent three hours on that, but the result looks pretty good. When I get home from work, I will upload the new index (and associated templates). As of now, there is a column for "year", but it's not filled in yet. I am exploring ways to make that automatic, by extracting it from the honor's page. I also did work to add the development stage (0-100%) to the honor_desc template, and will auto-extract that into the indices as well (so we don't have to update it in the main index and in the category indices). I've got a proof-of-concept working on the skill level column, but... I'm not sure I like it. The approach I took might make the site substantially slower. But it's a start. Since I am monolingual, I am happy to work on that sort of thing instead of translation. --Jomegat (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Sortable list on main page looks awesome. How do we control the stage icon? JadeDragon (talk) 19:44, 5 October 2014 (EDT)

I'm glad you like it. The stage data is extracted from the honor's honor_desc template (I added a "stage" argument). Just update it in the honor, and the index will get it. Whenever we're ready, we can switch the category indices over to use the honor_entry template too. I don't mind working on that, as it could be something I can program the robot to take care of. But I have to tend to non-wiki things this week, so I might not get around to it for a little while. Feel free to step in and try it out. I will eventually try to extract the year from the honor_desc template too, but the way I'm doing it now does not scale well. It's OK for only five stagesw, or three skill levels, but for 85 years of honor intro dates... that's going to be a problem. I will want to think about that some more before acting. --Jomegat (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2014 (EDT)

I dont see the year as a really useful thing to sort by except maybe to find new honors. Does anyone say "I'm going to earn honors from 1968 now"? I did some checking and everythings seems good, just the first honor I checked must have had different % between the Category and Front pages due to me not updating it. WAY easier to do the % update on the honor page instead of the really hard to read list! I'll keep working toward getting honors to 100% since I can't translate. JadeDragon

Getting the year on the index page is definitely a low priority. The thought was that being able to sort by year would be a good replacement for the "new" icon. Actually... that could be automatic now, just by checking that the honor is in one of the categories for the past two years, and then adding the new icon. Hmm. --Jomegat (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2014 (EDT)

OK, that was easy. I usurped the "Year" column and made it the "new" column. "New" is any honor made in 2013, 2014, and getting ready for next year... in 2015. Sometime next year we should update the Template:isNewHonor template. --Jomegat (talk) 22:11, 6 October 2014 (EDT)

I notice that you're making some changes to the Category pages, so just let me know when you think youŕe mostly done so I can start translating. I assume the plan is to use the sortable lists on all the Honor Category pages so I'm going to see what templates really do need to be translated and which ones can be left alone and still work. --w126jep (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Yes, that is the plan. I'll let you know when I'm done. --Jomegat (talk) 20:48, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Arts & Crafts through Outreach are done now. I'm working my way down the list, but I'm done for the evening. --Jomegat (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Nice. I have to manually go one by one with each honor and translate the name, so it takes a while. I'm also adding the names of the new SAD honors, even though I've only added the requirements to a handful. The Spanish lists will sometimes be almost twice as long as their English counterparts. --w126jep (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Regional Honors Variations

When a local conference has an honor with the same name or subject matter as a GC/Div honor - even if the requirements are different, I propose we exclude the regional honor or clearly mark it as obsolete. Examples include Florida's Adventist Heritage,, Ukraine's Feltcraft, Backpacking & Adv, Camp Cookery. If a Div creates a variation, I propose we include it with a disambig page as has been our practice so far. SPD has a few variations we have not covered yet.JadeDragon 00:21, 25 September 2014 (EDT)

Is it possible to include the different insignia image with the disambig pages? Ukraine has its own images and the FL Heritage Award does too, for example. -- w126jep 00:33, 25 September 2014 (EDT)

Sure we can just add the image. would make the page look nicer. JadeDragon (talk) 15:51, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

Once the Translate extension is up, we could select an image based on language. That's an imperfect solution, I know, but it might be pretty OK-ish. FWIW, I'm uploading the extensions now. They won't go live until I can get our service provider to run the update script though. How I wish I had shell access! --Jomegat (talk) 20:17, 30 September 2014 (EDT)

i don't see how selecting by images by language helps anything - maybe I don't understand. JadeDragon (talk) 14:31, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

I was thinking that in the case of the Ukranian honors, we could use the Ukranian version of the insignia in the Ukranian translation. I guess there's no en-fl (English for Floridians), so my suggestion doesn't make sense for that case. BTW, there is an en-ca. If you want to Candianize any of the honors (or just play around with the Translate extension). --Jomegat (talk) 18:20, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Eh, Canadians are not that different! I'll stick to content creation. JadeDragon (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2014 (EDT)

Primary vs Secondary Honors vs prerequisites

The honor_desc template has an argument called secondary which can be set to true. This prevents that page from being counted in the honor counts, and is used in honors where there are answers with regional variants (such as Currency).

I'm thinking I might want to change the way that works so that rather than setting it to true (and calling it secondary), we would instead add a new argument which would point to its primary, and if it is primary, it would not set that field at all. The intended use of this argument would be so we could pass it along to the "See also" page (which would have to become a template, as pages don't take arguments). "See Also" displays all the pages belonging to a category [[Category:Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Prerequisites/(this page name)]]. Instead, honor_desc will pass it the name of the primary if there is one, or the honor name if there is not. In other words, instead of a secondary honor checking that it is a prereq, it will check if its primary honor is.

The alternative is to include every variant of an honor as a prerequisite in the pages where the primary is a prerequisite. And although that would work (kinda, but badly), it would also create a maintenance headache - for example, when people create a new variant of Currency, someone would then have to edit Currency - Advanced to add the new variant as a prereq. Ouch.

My thought is that if we add a new arg to honor_desc, we could use it for both prereqs as well as knowing to count (or not count) an honor in the tallies.

I think all translated honors should set the primary field to the English primary. The translated "See Also" templates will know to tack on the language code and link to that honor. Honors that have disambiguation pages (i.e., a list of variants) should be the representative primary for that whole group (State Study, Christian Citizenship, etc). This way I think the list of sequels will work in any language, and the honor counts will be correct.

Before I move on this, I need to see how else the secondary is used so I don't break something.

Thoughts? --Jomegat (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Great idea. I don't believe secondary is used in any other fashion besides the counts. I have always tried to defer the counts to the English pages anyway because if not, the count would include the other hundred or so SAD honors that I haven't yet added requirements to. And if this will help with a translatable and usable «See Also» page, even better. --w126jep (talk) 19:11, 19 November 2014 (EST)

It's in progress now. I'm hand editing all the honors in Category:Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Secondary to add primary=blah to their honor_desc. The honor counts may be off while I do this. Didn't think I could get the bot to do it for me either. An added benefit is that we no longer have false alarms on sequels - if the honor has no sequels, the sequels box should not appear. No more expanding to check. I like that! --Jomegat (talk) 22:07, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Well that is a nice feature. A general rule of thumb in web design is the less clicking there has to be done, the better the layout is perceived by the reader. I guess it just means people like being lazy ... --w126jep (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Now that the sequels stuff has been worked out, would it be wise to remove the link to the advanced honor from the honor_desc box? Should we not collapse the sequels box? Should we look at collapsing it only if it has more than N (and if so, what does N equal)? -- Jomegat (talk) 12:34, 20 November 2014 (EST)

I personally like having the link to the advanced honor in the honor_desc box. I feel as if it is more important to show that the honor has a direct continuation, regarding the same topic, so it should be highlighted more, as it currently is.

I think having a non-collapsible sequels box is preferred. I think people are less prone to click for more information than they are to scroll down. Maybe we could collapse it if it has more than five (which I can't think of any honor at the moment that might have more than that). --w126jep (talk) 16:53, 20 November 2014 (EST)

OK, I will leave the advanced honors in the box. There are indeed some honors that serve as prerequisites to more than 5 other honors/IA requirements (the new stuff does not distinguish). Also, I found there is a better DynamicPageList extension that gives better control over the output formatting - so potentially we could add graphics, suppress full page names, etc. I will look into that. Meanwhile, I could change the sequels box to show up to five, and those beyond five would be collapsed & expandable. --Jomegat (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2014 (EST)