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Honor prerequisite

I have unleashed the bot. It is converting all pages that use ay_prerequisite over to honor_prerequisite. When it's done, I will delete ay_prerequisite. Honor_prerequisite uses named arguments:

• honor - the page name of the honor
• category - the category to which that honor belongs
• displayname - an optional argument for the name that should displayed. This is useful for translated honors, as the honor= argument should be Page_Name_In_English/language, while the displayname should be the translated name.

Watch for trouble! --Jomegat (talk) 21:03, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Nice. I'll be on guard. --w126jep (talk) 21:50, 18 November 2014 (EST)

It's done, and I have detected no havoc. That does not mean there isn't any. I also changed the template:honor_prerequisite/es and everything that linked to it. Even that looks pretty OK, though the robot was not able to handle that, as the bot takes the edit path, and these had to go via the translate path. Dunno if we'll be able to effect wholesale changes like that with the bot. That's something we may have to look into. It also had a spot of trouble with the pages that have been "translated" into English (with the "/en" suffix). I deleted those. I have also deleted the deprecated ay_prerequisite templates. JD, you were battling the bot for a while (inserting ay_pre's while it was replacing them with honor_pre's). But the bot won. ;-) --Jomegat (talk) 22:20, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I'll check around and see if I see anything out of place. --w126jep (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I noticed the new line does not use the category. That is just fine. Makes translation easier. JadeDragon (talk) 22:39, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Advanced Honors Prerequisite

I don't think it's valid to say that Antelopes is a prerequisite to Antelopes - Advanced. Just because it makes sense doesn't make it so. The requirements don't call it out, so I don't think we should add it as one. --Jomegat (talk) 22:15, 17 November 2014 (EST)

How about we insert a problematic requirement? Since the advanced star is added to the basic patch, how you going to show you earned the advanced honor only? JadeDragon (talk) 22:43, 17 November 2014 (EST)

That sounds like the right way to deal with it. There is no way to show advanced sans basic in this case, but as I said, just because it makes sense doesn't mean we have license to change it. If we did, no honors would have problematic requirements. ;-) --Jomegat (talk) 22:52, 17 November 2014 (EST)

So is this the only Advanced honors that doesn't request the basic honor as its first requirement? --w126jep (talk) 23:11, 17 November 2014 (EST)

these have the same issue - official requirements don't require basic honor as a prereq:

1. Antelopes - Advanced
2. Bible Marking - Advanced
3. Cacti - Advanced
4. Disaster Response - Advanced
5. First Aid - Advanced No header
6. Geological Geocaching - Advanced
7. Lifesaving - Advanced
8. Paper Quilling - Advanced
9. Ultimate Disc - Advanced
10. Water Safety Instructor - Advanced
11. Some or all the swimming honors - but you can't pass red cross levels without getting the earlier levels or testing out

discussion

We should create a category for advanced honors not requiring the basis as a prerequisite. I could then present that to the NAD for action. A lot of them did not originate in the NAD (but some did), so the NAD would hafta forward that to the GC. BTW, These lists would be a lot easier to read if you used wiki links instead of web links. --Jomegat (talk) 14:28, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I was thinking use the problematic requirement template and just paste in a standard explanation in it at the top of each honor followed by the ay prereq template. We already provide the answers we feel are right to the other problematic requirements across the project. There is no one that will argue with linking the Advanced back to the Basic Honor at the beginning of the answers, or linking the basic to the advanced as a Sequel and in the header. These are all links of convenience not changes to the requirements.

I agree. It simply states "see also" not "followed by" or "next level". It would be more for convenience. --w126jep (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2014 (EST)

We should submit all the problematic honors together. Dixie Plata (on both NAD and GC Honor Comm) told me they are working to rationalize the GC vs NAD variations and fix any problematic requirements. She asked me to email the details to her, which I'll do when I think we have them all tagged. JadeDragon (talk) 17:19, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Sequential Honors not showing at Prereqs pages sequential box:

(need to check these later - hopefully resolved with addition of templates)

1. Computers (GC) (Computers Advanced and Internet Advanced I think) and Advanced honor not showing in header.
2. Currency - Advanced (Canada)
3. First Aid, Basic (nor in the header)
4. First Aid, Standard (nor in the header)
5. Music (GC)
6. Music - Advanced (SPD)
7. Stars (South Pacific Division) not showing See Also in header-can we over ride?

es pages showing in the sequential honors

1. First Aid, Standard
2. Orienteering

I'm going to have to change honor_desc to take an optional argument for the advanced honor for cases like these where the honor name cannot be computed (can't insert " - Advanced" before the parenthetical portion. Not easy, but I'm sure it's doable. --Jomegat (talk) 14:30, 18 November 2014 (EST)

So then what is the difference between the Honor Prerequisite Template and the AY Prerequisite Template? If I remember correctly, the Honor Prerequisite Template was created because the AY Prerequisite Template wasn't helpful in the translation process. Does this have anything to do the sequential honors and how they are categorized? When do we use one instead of the other? --w126jep (talk) 15:01, 18 November 2014 (EST)

honor_prerequisite was intended to replace ay_prerequisite, but I don't remember what the difference was, or how far along I got with honor_prereq. For now, we should proably stick with ay_prereq. I'll coax the robot into doing the replacement when it's ready. I'll add that to my todo list. --Jomegat (talk) 15:18, 18 November 2014 (EST)

I just looked at every Advance Honor and hopefully every sequential honor. 95% of the honors use ay_prerequisite and I replaced the few that did not with ay_prerequisite. Hope that was correct. JadeDragon (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Having Dixie take a look is a good idea and lends weight to the concept of adding a problematic requirement report to all of those honors. That way we can collect them all in one place. --Jomegat (talk) 18:44, 18 November 2014 (EST)

Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/missingprereq JadeDragon (talk) 19:16, 18 November 2014 (EST)

IA Connections

We present the IA Connections in a variety if ways now, so I created a template at IAConnections. It is set so you insert the level and section together then what the requirement is. Next there is a free form field. Given the variety of situations I can't figure how to better systemize it. It does not need to that user friendly since I'll go through and add it to all applicable Honors in one go and then we are good until the IA requirements change. I add the IA logo, however I think it would look nice in a box - don't know how to add the box. See Red Alert for an example. JadeDragon

I've boxed the template - to do that, all you need to do is wrap it in a table and set the table's background color. Feel free to change the color to something else if you want - I borrowed it from the honor_desc template. --Jomegat (talk) 18:40, 15 November 2014 (EST)

Transcluding large swaths of Honors

I'm not terribly comfortable with taking large swaths of honor material and transcluding it into the IA pages. I have one main objection, and that's the header levels (i.e., the number of equal signs surrounding a section name). It should not be the same in the IA page as in the honor page. We could deal with that, but it's very ugly and would make it difficult (to nearly impossible) for a novice to edit. I would like to explore options before we walk down that path very far. I remember seeing an extension I could install that would allow us to transclude a portion of a page - maybe that would help. --Jomegat (talk) 08:48, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Yeah - here's the extension. Let's come up with a formula for naming sections inside an honor, and see what we can come up with. I'll work on installing the extension this weekend. --Jomegat (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Jomegat I just saw this after you commented on my talk. I've just finished the last section of the last section (Guide Serving Others) that could benefit from this (except if we want to bring over Nature honor requirements, but that is not really necessary because the IA provides the requirement directly without calling out the honor. It is really only in the Serving Others sections that specific requirements are called out and that is a mess. I kind of like the way the Requirement displays exactly the same size as on the honor page, but we can easily push it down in size by adding == or === on either side of the template text and excluding the == within the template page itself. For this to work the question and the answer need to be on separate templates.

I don't think making it easier for a novice to edit the Requirements is a good thing. In fact, would it be worthwhile to put the honor questions all in protected pages like the IA requirements are? Maybe a bot could be asked to do that following this formula Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Rural_Development/R1 for Requirement 1 Would that make translation harder though? JadeDragon (talk) 18:58, 14 November 2014 (EST)

I agree that making the requirement easy for a novice to edit is bad, but making the answers easy to edit is most definitely a Good Thing. Moving the reqs to their own page would be a very laborious proposal. It would be nearly impossible to coax a bot into doing that right and could easily make a huge mess. Also, it solves a problem I don't think we have (that is, people coming in and changing the reqs - the NAD was afraid of that, but it hasn't happened here).

I have the extension working now. You can see it at Sandbox/ComDev which is divided into sections, and in Sandbox/IAComDev which transcludes those sections. We might want to discuss putting the headers in their own sections and their bodies in another. That way we could fix the header level problem.

Maybe we don't care about header levels on the IA pages though. The problem would be more apparent if the IA pages didn't suppress the table of contents (with __NOTOC__), but if we take that out and look at the TOC, we'd see that the page outlines are very broken. Not a big deal on the IA pages, but it would be a huge problem on the honor pages (which do not suppress the TOC). --Jomegat (talk) 19:23, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Useful tool. In the ADRA/ACS honors and the Serving Others sections there is significant duplication, which I've just transluded for anything called out in IA. Some additional transluctions can be done between ACS-ADRA honors. I can split the few cases where the req and ans and combined, very easy to spot, and remoive any == inside the transluded page. Then we have full control of text size.

I checked and there is no problem with the TOC for the honors with transluded requirements. For example this one is 100% in transluded modules. Identifying Community Needs JadeDragon (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2014 (EST)

FRIEND Health and Fitness includes 2 requirements from Nutrition. COMPANION Health and Fitness includes 3 requirements from Temperance EXPLORER Health and Fitness include a requirement for Christian Grooming and Manners The answers are not synced at all. Can you translude them Jomegat? JadeDragon (talk) 18:01, 15 November 2014 (EST)

I sectionized Nutrition and included it in Friend. I'll work on Temperance & Grooming next. It's not that hard. --Jomegat (talk) 18:43, 15 November 2014 (EST)

Still to do - all Nature Study IA vs honor translutions. Just making a note so we remember. JadeDragon (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2014 (EST)

IA Basic vs Advanced Presentation

Issue 1: There are two or three different approaches to sections that have only Basic or Advanced requirement. Which style do you prefer?:

1. The Personal Growth section is a requirement for both the Standard Friend and Trail Friend classes: FRIEND Personal Growth
2. There are no additional requirements in the Outdoor Living section for Trail Friend.

FRIEND Outdoor Living

1. There are no requirements in the Honor Enrichment section for the Standard Friend level. This section is required only for the Trail Friend level.

FRIEND Honor Enrichment

I prefer the second of these, but do not have a strong preference. --Jomegat (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)

I also like the second version. --w126jep (talk) 17:52, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Issue 2: I can make these lines more generic so they can be turned into transcluded modules which will make translation faster. Ie "There are no additional requirements in this section for the Advanced ribbon."

JadeDragon (talk) 16:42, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Absolutely. --Jomegat (talk) 17:45, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Done and all sections are consistent now. JadeDragon (talk) 19:54, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Very good and excellent work.--w126jep (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2014 (EST)

Wonderful work on adding the new IA templates and really unifying the curricula throughout the wiki. As a user, it makes it so much easier to navigate and understand how all the classwork is really linked together. As a translator, it just simply makes the job easier. Nice! --w126jep (talk) 00:59, 13 November 2014 (EST)

I've got additional work to do in this vein. Don't start translating IA until I let you know IA is all restructured and ready.

jomegat how to create a Category or template called "Honors tied to IA?" I'd like to standardize and template how we show the IA connections at top of every connected honor. JadeDragon (talk) 19:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Creating a category is easy - just add it to the page a la [[Category:Category Name|sort key]]. It will show up as a red link at the bottom of the page. Click on it and it will let you create a page (but even if the page doesn't exist, the category will). You can add text to the page. --Jomegat (talk) 20:24, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Actually, I think I can automate that if the IA page uses the ay_prerequisite template. If it doesn't, we can still add the category manually. --Jomegat (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Nope. Harder than I thought. --Jomegat (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Sortable List

Last night while the wiki was read-only, I experimented with my own copy of the wiki on my laptop, basically implementing the sortable index. I guess I spent three hours on that, but the result looks pretty good. When I get home from work, I will upload the new index (and associated templates). As of now, there is a column for "year", but it's not filled in yet. I am exploring ways to make that automatic, by extracting it from the honor's page. I also did work to add the development stage (0-100%) to the honor_desc template, and will auto-extract that into the indices as well (so we don't have to update it in the main index and in the category indices). I've got a proof-of-concept working on the skill level column, but... I'm not sure I like it. The approach I took might make the site substantially slower. But it's a start. Since I am monolingual, I am happy to work on that sort of thing instead of translation. --Jomegat (talk) 12:43, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Sortable list on main page looks awesome. How do we control the stage icon? JadeDragon (talk) 19:44, 5 October 2014 (EDT)

I'm glad you like it. The stage data is extracted from the honor's honor_desc template (I added a "stage" argument). Just update it in the honor, and the index will get it. Whenever we're ready, we can switch the category indices over to use the honor_entry template too. I don't mind working on that, as it could be something I can program the robot to take care of. But I have to tend to non-wiki things this week, so I might not get around to it for a little while. Feel free to step in and try it out. I will eventually try to extract the year from the honor_desc template too, but the way I'm doing it now does not scale well. It's OK for only five stagesw, or three skill levels, but for 85 years of honor intro dates... that's going to be a problem. I will want to think about that some more before acting. --Jomegat (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2014 (EDT)

I dont see the year as a really useful thing to sort by except maybe to find new honors. Does anyone say "I'm going to earn honors from 1968 now"? I did some checking and everythings seems good, just the first honor I checked must have had different % between the Category and Front pages due to me not updating it. WAY easier to do the % update on the honor page instead of the really hard to read list! I'll keep working toward getting honors to 100% since I can't translate. JadeDragon

Getting the year on the index page is definitely a low priority. The thought was that being able to sort by year would be a good replacement for the "new" icon. Actually... that could be automatic now, just by checking that the honor is in one of the categories for the past two years, and then adding the new icon. Hmm. --Jomegat (talk) 21:34, 6 October 2014 (EDT)

OK, that was easy. I usurped the "Year" column and made it the "new" column. "New" is any honor made in 2013, 2014, and getting ready for next year... in 2015. Sometime next year we should update the Template:isNewHonor template. --Jomegat (talk) 22:11, 6 October 2014 (EDT)

I notice that you're making some changes to the Category pages, so just let me know when you think youŕe mostly done so I can start translating. I assume the plan is to use the sortable lists on all the Honor Category pages so I'm going to see what templates really do need to be translated and which ones can be left alone and still work. --w126jep (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Yes, that is the plan. I'll let you know when I'm done. --Jomegat (talk) 20:48, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Arts & Crafts through Outreach are done now. I'm working my way down the list, but I'm done for the evening. --Jomegat (talk) 21:15, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Nice. I have to manually go one by one with each honor and translate the name, so it takes a while. I'm also adding the names of the new SAD honors, even though I've only added the requirements to a handful. The Spanish lists will sometimes be almost twice as long as their English counterparts. --w126jep (talk) 22:10, 22 October 2014 (EDT)

Primary vs Secondary Honors vs prerequisites

The honor_desc template has an argument called secondary which can be set to true. This prevents that page from being counted in the honor counts, and is used in honors where there are answers with regional variants (such as Currency).

I'm thinking I might want to change the way that works so that rather than setting it to true (and calling it secondary), we would instead add a new argument which would point to its primary, and if it is primary, it would not set that field at all. The intended use of this argument would be so we could pass it along to the "See also" page (which would have to become a template, as pages don't take arguments). "See Also" displays all the pages belonging to a category [[Category:Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Prerequisites/(this page name)]]. Instead, honor_desc will pass it the name of the primary if there is one, or the honor name if there is not. In other words, instead of a secondary honor checking that it is a prereq, it will check if its primary honor is.

The alternative is to include every variant of an honor as a prerequisite in the pages where the primary is a prerequisite. And although that would work (kinda, but badly), it would also create a maintenance headache - for example, when people create a new variant of Currency, someone would then have to edit Currency - Advanced to add the new variant as a prereq. Ouch.

My thought is that if we add a new arg to honor_desc, we could use it for both prereqs as well as knowing to count (or not count) an honor in the tallies.

I think all translated honors should set the primary field to the English primary. The translated "See Also" templates will know to tack on the language code and link to that honor. Honors that have disambiguation pages (i.e., a list of variants) should be the representative primary for that whole group (State Study, Christian Citizenship, etc). This way I think the list of sequels will work in any language, and the honor counts will be correct.

Before I move on this, I need to see how else the secondary is used so I don't break something.

Thoughts? --Jomegat (talk) 18:40, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Great idea. I don't believe secondary is used in any other fashion besides the counts. I have always tried to defer the counts to the English pages anyway because if not, the count would include the other hundred or so SAD honors that I haven't yet added requirements to. And if this will help with a translatable and usable «See Also» page, even better. --w126jep (talk) 19:11, 19 November 2014 (EST)

It's in progress now. I'm hand editing all the honors in Category:Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Secondary to add primary=blah to their honor_desc. The honor counts may be off while I do this. Didn't think I could get the bot to do it for me either. An added benefit is that we no longer have false alarms on sequels - if the honor has no sequels, the sequels box should not appear. No more expanding to check. I like that! --Jomegat (talk) 22:07, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Well that is a nice feature. A general rule of thumb in web design is the less clicking there has to be done, the better the layout is perceived by the reader. I guess it just means people like being lazy ... --w126jep (talk) 22:31, 19 November 2014 (EST)

Now that the sequels stuff has been worked out, would it be wise to remove the link to the advanced honor from the honor_desc box? Should we not collapse the sequels box? Should we look at collapsing it only if it has more than N (and if so, what does N equal)? -- Jomegat (talk) 12:34, 20 November 2014 (EST)

I personally like having the link to the advanced honor in the honor_desc box. I feel as if it is more important to show that the honor has a direct continuation, regarding the same topic, so it should be highlighted more, as it currently is.

I think having a non-collapsible sequels box is preferred. I think people are less prone to click for more information than they are to scroll down. Maybe we could collapse it if it has more than five (which I can't think of any honor at the moment that might have more than that). --w126jep (talk) 16:53, 20 November 2014 (EST)

OK, I will leave the advanced honors in the box. There are indeed some honors that serve as prerequisites to more than 5 other honors/IA requirements (the new stuff does not distinguish). Also, I found there is a better DynamicPageList extension that gives better control over the output formatting - so potentially we could add graphics, suppress full page names, etc. I will look into that. Meanwhile, I could change the sequels box to show up to five, and those beyond five would be collapsed & expandable. --Jomegat (talk) 17:34, 20 November 2014 (EST)

First Aid, Standard - 7 honors and IA Ranger.

Intermediate Swimming is a prereq on 11 honors.

Can't see a reason to collapse 8 or 11 but not 5 as each takes just one line. If we set the sequels box to never collapse an made it sit tight to the header box and maybe same color we could dispense with the See also link in the header. I'm not a fan of all the various boxes separated with different offsets and widths. JadeDragon (talk) 19:35, 21 November 2014 (EST)

IA desc

I've been beating the See Also template into submission, but I'm not quite there yet. The problem I'm trying to solve with it is getting it to display the page's title (which may be a translation) vs the page name (which is the link). I have a path forward, as the new dpl extension give us a nifty way to extract template arguments from a page. In other words, if a page that it lists contains a template (such as honor_desc), and that template has an argument we want (such as honorname), we can pull that out and use it as the link name. It was an incredible battle trying to tease that out of the documentation.

However, the "See Also" template wants to return IA pages as well as honor pages, and IA pages do not have an honor_desc template. This can be solved by creating Template:IA desc, which I have already done. Right now it has very little info in it - the name of the class, and the display name of the page. I will be changing "See Also2" (which is the experimental version of "See Also") to extract the translated page name from there, but it could take me a week (so you might want to hold off on translations).

Meanwhile, is there any information you can think of that we should add to IA_desc? I know there are a ton of things we could add - but there's no need to go bananas. Stage might be a good addition, but are there others? We do not need "insignia" as this header will be placed on all eight sections of an IA class's pages, and they do not have separate insignia associated with them. Skill level and year really do not apply either.

Anyhow, if you think of anything we should add to it (or want to suggest what it should look like), the best place to do so would be on its talk page. Here's what it looks like now: (removed to prevent us from adding the discussion page to wrong categories).

Feedback please! --Jomegat (talk) 12:19, 24 November 2014 (EST)

See Also

OK, I have something that might kinda work for the "See Also" template. The one thing is does that I don't like is that it will not list the "See Also's" unless the answer key for that page exists. That's OK for English, as all the pages do exist for that, but for Spanish, they do not (yet). I have examples of what it does at Sandbox/See Also/test - which shows the see-also's for Trees and Trees/es. So the question is - is that preferable to showing the link in English? I think it might be, as the "doesn't exist yet" problem is temporary. If it were fixed, it would either point to a red link or to an English version of the page. --Jomegat (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Very nice! I have no idea what you did, I'll check out the history, but that looks great. I'm working on translating the honors as fast as I can! I'm just trying to focus on getting the requirements and have the pages exist before I go on to translate the answers. --w126jep (talk) 19:41, 25 November 2014 (EST)

If I understand the question correctly, I think a red link in Spanish is better than a live English link that has to be change. At the rate he is going all the Honors requirements will be up soon enough. As I get more time I hope to get answers for the rest of the English Honors up but what is left is some of the hardest stuff to write up properly (welding anyone?) and/or stuff I really have to research hard. JadeDragon (talk) 19:45, 25 November 2014 (EST)

I agree that a red link would be better. If I think of a way to make that happen, I'll give it a go. But the consensus seems to be to move ahead with this as is. --Jomegat (talk) 19:55, 25 November 2014 (EST)

If it's possible, red link, of course. --w126jep (talk) 20:02, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Template:Honor index

After learning some of the ropes of the new DPL extension (while working on See Also), I hacked together a really cool template that will generate an honor index much like the one on the front AYHAB page or on the honor category pages. It takes up to three category parameters (named cat, cat2, and cat3) and a "lang" template (for specifying the language). It creates a sortable table of all the honor pages in all of the specified categories. Sandbox/test has two examples of its use. The first shows all the Nature honors that have been translated into Spanish. The second shows all the Household Arts honors at Skill Level 2.

I could easily add more cat parameters, and if we want, I could add some "excat" (exclude category) parameters as well.

What makes this cool is I was able to extract the honor insignia and year from the honor_desc template in all the honors and show them in the table. Nice!

We will not need to translate this template, as it works for any language.

Cool factor aside, this will eliminate the need for us to create indices manually. All we have to do to get an honor to show up in an index is add it to the categories the page wants (and honor_desc already mostly takes care of that). The question is... should we replace the indices we have with this? --Jomegat (talk) 15:39, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Adding the honors to the lists alphabetically and manually is a big pain. I synchronized the 8 category lists with the main page list and found a few errors. The translated honor names will not be alphabetical in the new language if they just follow the English order, so anything that helps automate this is welcome. I love showing the honor images - that was on my to do list of something to try. JadeDragon (talk) 16:06, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Lovin' it. Yes, yes and yes. Show the patches; replace indices; add/exclude whatever. I think it is a very nice improvement. --w126jep (talk) 16:39, 26 November 2014 (EST)

True, though, that the names don't seem to be alphabetized in the Spanish version. I think default should be alphabetized instead of having to click for it to sort it that way. How can that be arranged? And the labels at the top of the table will need to be translated. --w126jep (talk) 16:44, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Oh yes... the column headers. We will have to translate then, but I will limit the translation to just the header name fields. I want to ring this out a bit more before going live with it. I'll dig into the sort key issue too. --Jomegat (talk) 16:49, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Right now, sorting is done based on the full page name (AYHAB/category/honorname). I have added a sortkey to all the categories in honor_desc, but sometimes it takes the database a while to catch up on such things, so I'm not sure if it worked (and it may not have). There are ways of making the sort happen after the page loads, but they look incredibly cumbersome to me, and I don't know that I want to try them out. There won't be a problem using this template on the honor category pages, as the category shows up in the page name before the honor name, and thus, all the pages will be sorted as we wish in that case. But on the main index page, there might not be much we can do about the sort order. All the ADRA honor will come first, then Arts and Crafts, etc. I will keep looking, but it doesn't look great. --Jomegat (talk) 18:30, 26 November 2014 (EST)

One thing I noticed in the Sandbox/test is the index in Spanish shows the different versions of some honors, like the Cats honor (Gatos). It is showing the different pages for different divisions. How can that be fixed to only show the primary page? Does the Primary argument have to be added? --w126jep (talk) 19:06, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Good catch. I'll have to think about that one for a bit. It's a little messy in that if we add Gatos to the primary category, it will be added to the counts (which we don't want). That's why it's good to move slowly sometimes. --Jomegat (talk) 19:43, 26 November 2014 (EST)

I think it is fine for the main page to be sorted by category rather than strictly alphabetically. After all that is how you find the honors in the printed book. Anyone wanting strict alphabetical can have that with a single click. JadeDragon (talk) 20:47, 26 November 2014 (EST)

That was a feature of the printed answer books that I always disliked. Oh well. BTW, I have a solution to the triple Gatos problem. I could brute-force it in to all the others, but am holding off on that until I know I can't finesse it in instead.

In other news, we had a snowstorm yesterday and our power is out. I'm at the church right now for a couple of hours (where we do have working utilities). We don't expect our power to be restored today, and perhaps not tomorrow either. So I am Wiki-limited for a bit. --Jomegat (talk) 17:03, 27 November 2014 (EST)

I've got the bot working on it now (finesse). It's adding the honors that should not appear in a regular index to the AYHAB/noindex category. --Jomegat (talk) 17:51, 27 November 2014 (EST)

Quite the trooper! No power, middle of a snowstorm, and still working on the wiki! I hope your Thanksgiving wasn't ruined! --w126jep (talk) 11:06, 28 November 2014 (EST)

Not ruined at all. Just delayed. One of my sons declared that it was our sitcom Thanksgiving (because it read about like you wold expect a sitcom TG to read). :D We have our power back now, but still no Internet (or cable) service. Went out for lunch today and ordered a side of free wifi. --Jomegat (talk) 12:46, 28 November 2014 (EST)

Internet service is back at my house. I have created a test page at Sandbox/AYHAB which may eventually replace the main honor page. Please take a critical look at it. Here are a few things I have discovered:

• Whenever we accidentally create an English translation of a page, it will show up here.
• The Honor_index template does not gracefully handle the lack of an insignia image - we will have to deal with that somehow.
• It found some test pages that I had created earlier - I have deleted them. I could also have added them to the noindex category.

All this does point out the weak point in an automatically curated front page - it will find things we might not want it to find. However, I think it may well be worth it. I will create test index pages for the Honor category pages (Arts & Crafts, Nature, etc) and we can look for problems there too before going live.

Great work. Currently the wiki inserts the honor keys image if no honor image is specified. If we specified the honor keys image in the header template as a placeholder it would show up in the index instead of the patch. I'll try that when I'm on my computer. JadeDragon (talk) 14:55, 29 November 2014 (EST)

That should work. I've changed honor_desc so that if the insignia is set to the keys image it will still add it to Category:No insignia image. That way we can easily find those that lack insignia and either continue searching for them, or know to pester someone. I'll change the few honors that have no insignia... --Jomegat (talk) 16:51, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Your changes moved the "Limited Availability" beside the honor token from below the token. Not as pretty. JadeDragon (talk) 18:12, 29 November 2014 (EST)locat

Fixed! --Jomegat (talk) 18:24, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I have made the change. The eight index pages plus the main page now use Honor_index to create the indices. As always, please report any problems if you notice any. --Jomegat (talk) 18:24, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I notice the Spanish index does not alphabetize by default. Is there a way to fix that so it can be consistent with the English version? --w126jep (talk) 11:26, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Yes - I'll need to change the Honor_desc/es template to add the honorname as the sort key in all the categories. --Jomegat (talk) 11:57, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Done. It might take a bit for the database to catch up. It has to notice that pages that include honor_desc/es now have category sort keys. You can force the issue by performing a null edit (edit & save without making changes), but it's a lot easier to adjust the patience threshold knob upwards a bit and wait for it to happen by itself. --Jomegat (talk) 12:07, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I have replaced the Spanish Honor category indices with Honor_index/es, (except for Arts & Crafts). None of those have been translated yet, so I though the existing one would be better than a new, but empty page. Also we may have to revisit the Outreach index - the ACS/ADRA sections will almost certainly need to be adjusted. Those subsections are empty now, but may be incorrect once populated with real pages. --Jomegat (talk) 12:57, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Very nice. I'm working on all honors as fast as time and family allows. I haven't worked on the the Arts & Crafts section yet but I'll get there. I think I got translated most of the honors that are needed for IA (except ADRA/ACS), which was more priority for me. Thanks for setting that up, though! It also helps me see how much I've completed and how much still needs to be done, since only the fully translated honors show up. --w126jep (talk) 14:19, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Very minor issue, but the Stage column in the new template sorts 0 - 100 - 25 - 50 - 75 JadeDragon (talk) 20:08, 30 November 2014 (EST)

I have addressed that now (in English and in Spanish). Let me know if you see anything else. --Jomegat (talk) 22:22, 30 November 2014 (EST)

Honor Category showing as Honorname

All the honors are showing their honorname where the category should go. The link takes you to the category, but the name appears as of the honor, instead of the category. I'm not sure if that was done intentionally, but I think it would be more beneficial to show the category name instead of the honorname, which seems redundant. --w126jep (talk) 19:19, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Thanks for fixing that - it was unintentional. I was attempting to add a sortkey to all the categories and didn't pay close enough attention to what I was doing. The good news is that the sortkey appears to be working! Just so you guys know, when you add a category to a page it's done like this: [[Category:Name of Category|Sort Key]]. The sort key is optional, and once in place, it takes a while for the database to catch up. --Jomegat (talk) 17:10, 27 November 2014 (EST)

Unknown or Blank Year => Not Specified

Someone knows the year but has not listed it. OK? JadeDragon (talk) 19:25, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Well, we don't know, so it is unknown to us. Also, whatever you put there will cause a new category to be created - "Honors introduced in Unspecified". I think it would be better to stick with one so that we can collect all of that info on a single page. I don't mind if you change it to unspecified, but if you do, please change them all. --Jomegat (talk) 19:47, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Yes that is why I brought it up - all should say the same thing or all blank would be fine too but no category page. I want to agree on the word before I change them all to one thing. JadeDragon (talk)

I don't have a strong opinion between blank, Unknown, and Not Specified (though blank would made the column less wide). I think that if left blank, the template will add it to the unknown category (but I should check). --Jomegat (talk) 21:46, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I just checked - blank does add it to the unknown year category. I think I prefer blank. --Jomegat (talk) 21:47, 29 November 2014 (EST)

I shall blank them all then. JadeDragon (talk) 23:09, 29 November 2014 (EST)

Deletion bot

(Moved from other topic)

I also plan to run a "delete English translations" bot on a nightly basis. I have noticed that when we kick off a translation deletion, it really bogs down the server. So we will want to schedule such activity at a time where we are not typically doing any heavy editing. I'm thinking 4:00am Eastern time (1:00am Pacific). If you plan to do regular editing then, let me know and I can search for a different time slot. I will also look into a way of excluding pages that end with /en, but that could be tricky. --Jomegat (talk) 23:29, 28 November 2014 (EST)

I did not notice this post until now. I have been deleting translations the entire time -_- I don't know why, but almost every time I mark for translation, it will automatically create an English version. I tried working with the website in Spanish mode to see if it would curb that, but no success. Is the bot running every night and deleting /en pages? The /en pages mess up the indices and also the "See also" template (or whatever is in its place now). --w126jep (talk) 19:06, 1 December 2014 (EST)

I have not done that yet. I can look into it tonight though. --Jomegat (talk) 19:14, 1 December 2014 (EST)

Yes, please. It is a constant battle deleting these pages and they come back every time a new marking is made for translation. Poor Fuzzybot seems to constantly be on the move getting rid of these. --w126jep (talk) 19:22, 1 December 2014 (EST)

Might not be doable. The delete script is not very flexible when it comes to specifying pages to delete. I can either retrieve them from a category, get the page names from a file (generated by what?), or name each file explicitly. The "category" bot script will allow me to add a page to a category using wildcards in the page name, so I thought I'd be able to add the */es pages to "Speedy Delete", and then run the delete bot against that category. But no dice. The category bot cannot edit translations (translations can only be translated, not edited, even by a bot). If I could get over that hurdle, I would then surely face the "You can't delete translations" hurdle (if that exists). I will continue researching this, but we might not see any results tonight. --Jomegat (talk) 20:08, 1 December 2014 (EST)

Sometimes I ask stupid questions but hopefully they trigger an idea for you. Why are the /en pages not valid? Why not make the /en pages the ones that populate the whole English version of the wiki? How is English different then any other language in the wiki? If we translate to fr or Greek will these /en pages get created everytime a page is marked for translation? If so maybe we should work with them instead of against the en pages.

Say an honor is added in Spanish with Spanish answers, can I go in and translate that to English? What if answers are supplied in Spanish, will we know to translate them to English? Certainly I can personally make perfect English sense from Spanish but not the reverse. So if W126 wants to just type in (or point me at an online source for) Spanish Honors I can translate a bunch to English.

It seems like to me that this wiki can be a fantastic tool for getting the requirements into every language used in Pathfinders far more cost effectively then translating and printing material, and faster. A huge benefit to the whole world if used correctly.

The translate extension requires that all translations come from "the source language" which in our case is English. It is not possible to translate from Portuguese to English. I did some asking on mediawiki, and learned that the /en stuff should perhaps be considered as valid. This would be most useful for transcluded content, as the /en version is stripped of the translate tags (which we strip ourselves by surrounding with noinclude tags). I hae not fully digested all of that yet, and at this point, I don't know if that's the way for us to go. They also strongly suggested that the TNT template would solve a lot of problems, but SimpuleUpdates (our provider) will not allow that extension as it opens a security hole. They did not answer my main question, which was "how can we avoid creating the /en pages?"

I do think that rather than fighting the /en pages, we should learn to live with them. That may mean suppressing them from Honor_index and See_Also. It would be nice if we could quit rolling that stone up the hill. --Jomegat (talk) 08:36, 2 December 2014 (EST)

From what I researched, many times the answer provided was the TNT template. We'll make due, though. Really, there are only two issues with the /en pages: they show up in the indices & See Also template, doubling the names; and they mess up the count. If suppressing them can fix that, there'd be no other pertinent reason to keep deleting them. Though, if we can find out how to not create them in the first place, all the better. --w126jep (talk) 08:51, 2 December 2014 (EST)

I have changed Honor_index and See_Also to exclude all pages that end with /en. So I think we can quit fighting. --Jomegat (talk) 19:39, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Excellent! I deleted the last few /en pages just for old time's sake. Now we won't have to worry about them showing up in the indices. Will they mess up the count, though? --w126jep (talk) 21:44, 2 December 2014 (EST)

I'm glad you asked, because the answer was yes - /en pages were being added to the counts. Now they are not. --Jomegat (talk) 22:29, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Possible NAD Concerns

I have been thinking about all of the SAD honors we've been adding. Though I personally love having them here, I'm afraid the NAD will not be happy if/when they notice. They already did notice (but I don't think they knew how many we had), and asked that we make it plain that AdventSource did not carry the Volleyball. That's when I added the "Limited Availability" notice to the patches.

My thoughts are that we might be able to add a drop-down Division selector which would default to NAD. The honors shown in the index could then depend on the selected Division. We would still have the SAD honors, and though they would be hidden by default, they would be easy to reveal. It would be cool if we could detect the user's IP address and choose a default division for them, but that might be asking too much. In any case, a user would always be able to see what other divisions offer without too much effort.

I might experiment with this to see if it's possible, but I do not plan to act on it unless the NAD asks me to fix it. They are, after all, paying for the host provider. --Jomegat (talk) 22:42, 2 December 2014 (EST)

Dixie told me the committees were unhappy that SAD just published so many honors without talking to anyone else. They are working through the SAD honors to see what they can adopt. Someone noticed that someone in FL is adding them to the Wiki and "they have been spoken too". I'd say we are very carefully showing what has been approved where and that we are trying to build a worldwide resource, so we should do what is right for the Pathfinders. If it becomes an issue we can move the SAD ones off to the regional section, or an SAD section off the main index. JadeDragon (talk) 00:38, 3 December 2014 (EST)

It is my understanding that each Division is autonomous and works independently and does not need permission or approval from another, in regards to creating new honors. The SAD set up a committee with the leaders within their own territory and decided to create these honors. Who would they need to "talk to"? And what would they need to "talk to" someone for? For approval, for permission? I don't understand why the NAD or any other Division would be unhappy in that regard.

I agree with JadeDragon that we, as contributors, would like to see this site become a worldwide resource. But I understand what Jomegat pointed out too; this site is funded and provided by the NAD and they will have final say on what is appropriate for display on their site. I'm not sure what the problem really is showing the FL honors, though, since we have specified that they are Conference-level only and not approved by the NAD.

Again, I just find it odd that the committees of the NAD are "unhappy" with what another Division is doing for their own population. Much Spirit-led prayer needed to correctly address this. --w126jep (talk) 01:18, 3 December 2014 (EST)

She is on both the NAD and GC Honor committees so I don't know who was upset. If SAD had sent the honors up to the GC to start with they could have gone global right off, but then NAD and SPD do whatever they want too. She did say there is an effort to bring the GC and NAD variations together. Why all the politics? Glad I'm far outside that. JadeDragon (talk) 04:20, 3 December 2014 (EST)

Sending the honors straight to GC would have been a tremendous work to go through for the SAD. Most of their new honors were originally written in Portuguese. They had to spend about another 6 months taking the time to translate them to Spanish. To further translate them again to English to send them off for GC approval would have been another enormous task, especially since that is not the native language of any of the leadership there. It would seem unfair that SPD and NAD can approve their honors within a year but have the SAD wait almost 2 and a half years to get theirs approved by the GC, and then finally distribute the new honors to their population. I wonder who represents the SAD in the GC committee? Does the SAD have representation? Maybe they could address this?

And personally, I love the politics. I think it helps sort things out (refined in the fire, anyone?) and fix it for the better, especially when it is done according to the leading of the Spirit ;-) -- w126jep (talk) 10:05, 3 December 2014 (EST)

And in BC I noticed the Conf uses FL honors at camporee since it is unlikely anyone has earned them, so yes making the resource more widely available is helpful. JadeDragon (talk) 13:27, 3 December 2014 (EST)

Obsolete Page

I've been musing and I was just wondering what opinions might be about including a page where we can post honors that are obsolete. A page to go to where it would state in a big heading that these honors are no longer in circulation or available. Some examples I am thinking of are the NAD skateboarding honor and the Church Heritage Award (which will be replaced with Adventist Pioneer Heritage). There we could provide links to the honors that now replace them, if available. It would help clear up for many which honors are in circulation and which ones should be taught.

I don't mean regional honors, since they are still valid within their respective conferences. I mean honors that literally were wiped out of existence for one reason or another. I'm sure there are a few others out there and I think it would help dispel rumors or incorrect information that might be out there. --w126jep (talk) 12:55, 4 December 2014 (EST)

Isn't Skateboarding still in circulation outside the NAD? BTW, I am in favor of your proposal. It would be kind of a museum of ancient honors. We might also consider adding an obsolete field to Honor_desc - if present, it would add the page to the AYHAB/Obsolete page, and then we'd be able to filter them out of the main indices and auto-create the Obsolete index. Another option would be to add them to an AYHAB/{{division}}/Obsolete category so we could control their exclusion by division. Incidently, I'm thinking the division drop-down selector is looking more and more likely. It's more a question of how and when rather than if (though "if" is still a question). --Jomegat (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2014 (EST)

The Skateboarding honor is indeed still in circulation outside the NAD. I guess what I meant was insignia patches and/or requirements. I'm thinking about the many people I've seen that ask "what patch is this?" and the answer is that it is an antique. This wouldn't be for miscategorized honors (a la Optics white background to purple) but for honors whose entire design or requirements have changed dramatically (Swimming honors?).

It kind of would be like a museum, which I like. Again, we would make sure to emphasize that earning these honors would be pointless since they're not in circulation. --w126jep (talk) 15:10, 4 December 2014 (EST)

I'm not aware of any honors that are obsolete. Quite a few have been recategorized over the years, or had the requirements changed significantly.The vocationals were discontinued and reintroduced. JadeDragon (talk) 03:28, 14 December 2014 (EST)

In 2012, Drawing and Painting was replaced by Drawing, Drawing - Advanced, Painting, and Painting - Advanced. There may be others, but my history with Pathfinders does not go back that far. I think it would also be pretty cool to offer a gallery of retired insignia. For instance, the insignia for Basic Rescue used to show a St John's cross. Native American Lore used to show a multi-colored headdress (which was a historical inaccuracy). --Jomegat (talk) 22:22, 14 December 2014 (EST)

Yes, Teaching used to have a US flag and I think Caving insignia was changed. The patch for Drawing and Painting was assigned to Painting so it is not really obsolete. Dixie is collecting error patches and wants to put them online someday. She'd know about any obsolete patches out there. JadeDragon (talk) 03:43, 15 December 2014 (EST)

"Retired insignia" - That is the perfect way to describe it, I just couldn't put a name to it. That is the basic idea.

Also, the St. John's cross was used for First Aid, not Basic Rescue and I believe it is still the official version for other Divisions that don't operate in coordination with the Red Cross, such as the SPD or the TED. In fact, one of the pre-requirements states that British countries can complete the honor by passing the "St. John's Ambulance" course. --w126jep (talk) 12:38, 15 December 2014 (EST)

Main Navigation Menu on Left

At some point soon I'd like to see Achievement Classes added to the navigation - but can't see where to do that. JadeDragon (talk) 13:01, 15 December 2014 (EST)