User talk:W126jep

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Thanks, --Jomegat 18:11, 11 July 2014 (EDT)

Florida Honors

Do you think the Florida honors ought to be added to the honor counts? I automated that a little while back so that we would know how many honors are in what category without having to go in and manually count them. The new ones you have added are automatically added into those counts, so if you look, the Nature page now says it has over a hundred honors.

The front page says that the wiki includes honors adopted at the division level and higher. I don't mind including the FL honors here, because it's a good place to keep honors. In fact, I think the wiki would be a great place to develop new honors as well.

So far we have not added the FL honors to the category pages, nor to the main honor index. I'm not sure that we should just yet either, especially since this is an official NAD site, and the NAD has not approved these (though surely they must have been presented with the option?)

If we do not want the honors included in the counts, all we have to do is edit them and add "secondary=true" (not in quotes) after the honor patch in the honor_header template.

Thoughts?

--Jomegat 18:41, 7 August 2014 (EDT)

I was not aware that only division honors and higher were adopted onto the site. I thought the wiki would be a good place to archive all requirements from around the world. I did not add the FL honors into the category pages or main index because I myself was not sure whether they should be included. I think a simple link on the main page to the FL Conference index would suffice. They would not have to necessarily be included in the main index. I honestly don't think the FL honors have to be added into the count. There are actually still a few I have not added yet. w126jep 20:24, 7 August 2014 (EDT)

That was a decision I made back in 2005 when I started the project at Wikibooks. At the time, I was just trying to bound the problem, having no idea how many honors might be out there below the division level. I think it's great to have them here. What do you think of having a single index page for all honors adopted below the division level? We could have icons to indicate where they originated and just lump them all into one place, and then throw a link on the main page to that index. We could also put "Florida Conference" in the honor_header template to show the originating institution. That would automatically categorize them.

To be honest, I think it would be good to have them in the index on the main page, but I don't know that the NAD committees would accept that. --Jomegat 23:57, 7 August 2014 (EDT)

I think you might be onto something there. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense to include them on the main index; of course, if the committee agrees. It would be ideal to have an index page with honors at conference levels. From what I've researched, only the FL Conference has a large selection of conference level honors. Other conferences might have one or two, but not as many as FL approved. It would still be nice to include them here in the wiki and it would be a great place to pilot them division or worldwide. It would be an easy way to present to the GC and pend approval. w126jep 00:12, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

I have created a tiny icon for Florida. I know that there will be a couple of conference-level honors being taught at Oshkosh next week. I'll try to snag their requirements and we can get them in the wiki as well. Maybe we should use something other than the FL_tiny icon for Florida - perhaps the Conference patch? It wouldn't scale down of course, but maybe that would be OK. The reason I suggest that is because though Florida's shape is obvious, other multi-state conferences will not be. --Jomegat 00:33, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

Maybe something more like this:

--Jomegat 00:39, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

I will be at Oshkosh also and try to snag some pictures of any new honor insignias. I have already compiled a personal list so I can know which ones I need to go check out. I will also try to record the requirements. Hopefully we can return from the trip with much to add to the wiki.

I see your point with the image. I'm not sure that last image works well for the different conference honors. Conference patches would be an excellent choice, but I don't know if we could find images for all of them. I'll ruminate and see if I can find or think up of any possible ideas. w126jep 00:53, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

Let me create one before we try to evaluate it. The basic idea is to show the states in the conference with enough context that we know what we're looking at. We might also try using a different color for conferences vs divisions. As for conference patches, we'd only need images for the conferences that have honors. I'm guessing that reduces the scope of the problem considerably. Please continue to ruminate!

If you want to meet up while at Oshkosh, send a note to me at jomegat@ my domain name which is jomegat.com. Then I'll email my phone number and we can arrange a meeting via text or voice. --Jomegat 12:02, 8 August 2014 (EDT)

How about just putting the word "LOCAL" (as a graphic) instead of a map icon. If we are going to add in the FL Honors we should put a standard section at the bottom of the honor page that says: "Important Note: To obtain this honor patch contact the Florida Conference at http://www.flpathfinderstore.com/" Is CB Radio a FL or GC honor? JadeDragon 00:45, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

I think that sounds like an excellent idea. Also, CB Radio is not FL Conf., SPD & SAD honor manuals list it as GC. --w126jep 07:10, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

I like the revision you did on the main page, right on the money. Also, when do you sleep? You're a machine! --w126jep 07:26, 19 September 2014 (EDT)

honor_desc

Thanks for repairing the damage. The 'bot instructions for the insignia field were the most difficult, and it's obvious I missed something! --Jomegat 13:27, 11 September 2014 (EDT)

honor_desc_es

When translating the honor_desc template, it might be better to leave the variable names alone (those are the words in triple curly braces, like {{{honorname}}}. When the page is viewed, the variable names should not appear at all. When a page is translated, the variable names will still appear in English, but the translator presumably knows English, so that should be OK? However, it is indeed a good idea to translate the stuff that's not in curly braces.

We should expect find find plenty of problems with the templates... --Jomegat (talk) 20:01, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Gotcha. That way it would still show up in the correct categorical pages. This is my first time really experimenting with wiki language and tags, so I'm just trying to get the hang of it. --w126jep (talk) 20:53, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

That's about the best way to learn. If you have questions, don't hesitate to ask. --Jomegat (talk) 21:05, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

I'm just trying to figure out now how to translate the part in the "Honors Sequels" that collapses and says "prerequisites". --w126jep (talk) 21:15, 2 October 2014 (EDT)

Transcluded Templates

So I'm stuck on two things really. In order for me to translate, I have to "mark" it as ready to translate. I have tried everything I know to do so but transcluded templates, such as the AY Master, do not show up in the editing portion and I have no way to mark it for translation. Secondly, the SUBPAGENAME does not properly display the page name, since it puts "es", the language extension that is at the end of the page name. I can edit and translate the page names but the SUBPAGENAME tag will refer to the original source and put the English name. I'm trying to figure out how to make that work.
Besides that, the rest is a breeze. It's pretty straightforward, just mark and translate. As soon as I know how to fix these two issues, I'll be able to start on the actual honors.
I am assuming that the IA classwork will also be translated. The NAD has official requirements in Spanish and French, and I don't see any reason to only translate the honors and not the classwork. --w126jep (talk) 02:51, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

Do you have to translate all the answers or are they machine translated and you need to fix them? When we add an answer in English does it have to be manually copied to the other languages? JadeDragon (talk) 05:42, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

There is no machine-translation - it all has to be done by humans When we make a change to an English page that has already been translated, it marks the section that changed as needing re-translation. It does slice the content into smallish chunks though, so when a change is made to the source material, only a small piece of the translated material should need to be updated.

As for SUBPAGENAME, yeah. That's what drove honor_desc over honor_header. We need to quit using SUBPAGENAME, or find one that recognizes "oh hey, that's the language, not the subpage" and reacts accordingly. Maybe there's an extension for that. I will dig into the transcluded templates when I can (but need to work on the day job right now). --Jomegat (talk) 10:34, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

OK, I might have a fix in place for the SUBPAGENAME problem. Instead of using {{SUBPAGENAME}}, we should use {{#titleparts:{{FULLPAGENAME}}|1|3}}. The "1" means show one element of the title, and the "3" means show the third element. This assumes that we are working with the 3-tiered hierarchy. I already tried this on the Template:AY Master/es, and it seems to maybe work? Let me know! If so, all we need to do is find every place that uses subpagename. --Jomegat (talk) 18:32, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

We might also want to look at this: [1]. --Jomegat (talk) 19:14, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

There's going to be a lot more work involved in getting the Translatable template things to work. I'll work on it as time allows. --Jomegat (talk) 20:52, 3 October 2014 (EDT)

Praise God, I was able to figure out how to translate the transcluded template for AY Master/es. The coding was in the honor_desc/es template the whole time! I just had to fix the code there and voilá, it is set up for Spanish.

I'm still trying to figure out how to include the correct Spanish name in the AY Master/es. I realize now (probably because I'm getting more familiar with wiki coding) that no template based on page name will ever work, such as the basenamepage or subpagename. This is because the actual page title will never be in Spanish, since only a language code extension is added (such as /es). I'm trying to learn how to instead include either:

• the {{{honorname}}} from the honor_desc/es template into the AY Master/es template or
• the name of the honor from the translated page title

Any suggestions?

Templates come with two types of parameters (or arguments as they are called in software engineering). The first type is positional, such as {{{2}}}, which means "the second argument". The other type is a "named argument", such as {{{honorname}}}. It is a Bad Idea to mix the two in a template. Positional arguments are easier to use for simple things, and they are more compact. But when we start to want to add optional arguments, or there are a lot of them, it begins to get more difficult. You then have to remember that the second argument meant "introduction year", etc, and you can't have new required arguments following an optional argument. So I generally prefer named arguments. The AY Master template takes one or two arguments, and uses the now-discredited {{SUBPAGENAME}} variable. We could try using {{#titleparts:{{PAGENAME}}|1|3}} instead of {{SUBPAGENAME}}, or we could change the template to take three named arguments and always pass them in. I still haven't figured out what titleparts will do with a translated page - it probably takes an English name. This means we'll need to rewrite the AY Master template and then robotically replace it wherever it is used. That is what I did when we moved from honor_header to honor_desc. I renamed it so that both could exist at the same time while the robot made the edits, otherwise it would have been broken during the transition. So if you like, I could take a crack at creating a new AY_Master (Honor_Master|honorname|mastername|core_vs_optional?) and then coaxing the robot into making the replacements. --Jomegat (talk) 18:32, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

Please do! I'm just trying things here and there to see if anything makes a difference. I don't really know what kinds of repercussions my edits will have, even though I'm just trying to test different things. If it's not too much trouble to rewrite the AY Master template, and if a robot can do most of the work, I think that would be ideal. -- w126jep (talk) 18:39, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

It's underway now. The template is "Honor Master", and I am making a few test runs with the 'bot. --Jomegat (talk) 18:53, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

Is there a way to use the "Page Display Title" instead of the SubPageName? Or would it create some kind of never-ending mess of a loop? -- w126jep (talk) 19:01, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

I'm having a hard time finding info about "Page Display Title" - I found stuff on plain old "Display Title", but it has been deprecated and is fraught with peril. Is that the same thing, or did you find something else? --Jomegat (talk) 19:20, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

"Display Title" I believe is the function to change the way a title is displayed on the page. What I would like to know and find is if it is possible to use within the parameters the title that is displayed, instead of the actual page name. If there is some line of code or tag or template that references or uses the displayed title, that could be used instead of the actual page name.

I don't find any information that something like that exists, and maybe it's just idealistic, but it sure would make it easier.

I don't think it can be used that way. I'm sure someone could write an extension to do that, but that's not a small task. --Jomegat (talk) 19:33, 13 October 2014 (EDT)

The new template worked like a charm. Thanks! I'm wondering if there are any other templates that are similar and will have to be redone as well ... --w126jep (talk) 12:55, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

There are a few more. I searched for SUBPAGENAME, then clicked the "advanced" search button and limited it to templates. There aren't that many: Template:Honor variants is one. The rest will just miscategorize the honor. Not that we want that, but it's a lower priority problem. --Jomegat (talk) 14:58, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

Translated Advanced Level

So here's another nice little challenge: How do I link the Advanced option within the honor_desc/es template? I mean, how do I show the honor has an advanced level also? As is written now in the English template, the code looks to see if there is an advanced level of the honor by checking for page titles that have the "category" and "honorname" input into the template. The problem in other languages is that in the template, the translated name is used for the "category" and "honorname"; and there exist no such pages with those parameters in their titles, since the language extension is simply added at the end of the English page title.

Any ideas or suggestions on how to link basic honor levels to advanced levels in other languages? How can I get the "ifexist" function to search for advanced honor levels in different languages?

I've been giving some thought to that. I think we'll have to use the #titleparts function to grab the first three elements of the title, tack on " - Advanced", and see if that exists in English. If it does, then there is an advanced version of the honor, whether it has been translated or not. Linking to it could be another issue. Maybe if we appended "/#language" to the English name of the honor we'd have a link, and then we'd need a translated name to appear. I'll play around with it some and see what I can do. --Jomegat (talk) 20:51, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

Have you had any luck using [[Special:MyLanguage/pagename in English|pagename in Spanish]]? I've been trying it out on the wiki on my laptop with no luck. It seems promising, as it would fix the links to the advanced honors as well as the honor's category. Jomegat (talk) 22:36, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

I have heard of it. I'll see what I can find. --w126jep (talk) 22:57, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

OK, maybe it works? I changed Template:Honor desc/es, and now if I set my preferred language to Spanish and click the "Avanzado" link, it takes me to the advanced page in Spanish. If I click it while using English as my preferred language, it takes me to the English version. I also changed the link to the honor category. The MyLanguage feature will default back to English if the page has not been translated. Let me know if this is a workable solution or if you see problems with it. If it works OK, then next up... Template:ay prerequisite. --Jomegat (talk) 23:00, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

It seems to do the trick. Only that the advanced link takes me to the English version of the honor. The only honor I've translated so far with an advanced level is Adventurer for Christ. And yes, I was about to mention the AY Prerequisite Template, I was trying to figure that one out as well. --w126jep (talk) 23:08, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

Did you try it with your preferred language set to Spanish? I don't think it cares where you are when you click the link - it only cares what language you have selected up at the top of the page (or in your user preferences). I know that's not ideal, but... it might be the best we can do? --Jomegat (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

It does work with the preferred language. It's not really the ideal, is there a way we can get it to link to the PageName/es?

I made an attempt. With this change, it will take you to "AYHAB/cat/honor - Advanced/es". The link to the category is red now because there is no translation for that page yet. Is this preferable? --Jomegat (talk) 23:41, 14 October 2014 (EDT)

It worked beautifully! I checked it out with "Adventurer for Christ"; it links directly to the advanced level in Spanish. Thanks for taking the time to help me figure these things out, I really do appreciate it. Two templates I'm also trying to work on are Template:ay prerequisite/es and Template:See also/es. I haven't really looked at what you did yet with the honor_desc to see if I can figure it out for the other templates, but I'll check it out later. I have a 3-month-old that refuses to sleep before 2 in the morning ... --w126jep (talk) 01:16, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

As with other templates, I have created a new one with a new name - Template:honor prerequisites will replace Template:ay prerequisites. I know what you mean about a 3-month old. I used to have one or three of those myself. The second one slept less than we did. I've also been thinking about how we mark templates and their inclusion for translation - we might be doing it wrong, and that could be the root of the problem. I will think about that some more. --Jomegat (talk) 07:03, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

Camels

The Camels SAD honor actually covers Camelids (4 south american members of family plus the two types of camels). Is it possible the spanish honor name translates better to Camelids rather than Camels? JadeDragon (talk) 19:34, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

Agreed. While the literal translation is indeed Camels, the structure of the requirements actually talks about camelids. I'll go ahead and change it to Camelids. -- w126jep (talk) 19:38, 15 October 2014 (EDT)

Clean Up

I don't know what you did, but FuzzyBot has been going nuts deleting a lot of our primary pages. I've undeleted 68 of them so far, but there are about another 100 that need to be restored. Maybe you could take a crack at that? If you go to recent changes and tell it to show you the latest 500 (instead of the default 25), then click on all the red links that Fuzzy has removed (I open them in a new tab). Then you can restore the edits. --Jomegat (talk) 10:34, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

??? I only deleted a few pages that still had the English language extension. I made sure to check every time before the deletion that it wasn't the primary page. I'm not sure what happened then. --w126jep (talk) 10:50, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

I don't know either, but it was saying that a lot of them were delete because AYHAB/Outreach and AYHAB/Outdoor Industries were deleted. Whatever the cause, we need to restore a bunch of pages. The main index is full of redlinks now. --Jomegat (talk) 10:56, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

Wow, I must have missed something. Sorry about that, I'll help restore them. --w126jep (talk) 10:58, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

It's an easy thing to do. Thanks! I wonder if there is an easy way to prevent us from accidentally translating to en (since that's what it seems to want to do by default). That seems to me to be the "root cause" of these woes. --Jomegat (talk) 11:34, 27 October 2014 (EDT)

Poison Ivy

I saw that you moved the translate tags around on the poison ivy page, and was wondering (not criticizing) what your rationale was. The reason I laid them out the way I did was to remove some of the wiki markup from the translation effort (thinking ahead to when we have more translators who may not know wiki markup). I don't mind at all that you changed it, but would like to understand why so that I don't repeat a mistake. --Jomegat (talk) 18:55, 5 November 2014 (EST)

Good question, I don't think I even know why. I guess it's because it's easier for me to just include the entire mark-up in the translation process. I'm more of a big picture kind of person and maybe the extra tags just seemed cluttered to me. Honestly, it doesn't matter, I was just trying to fly through and get through using the method I was accustomed to and that one just stuck out, since it looked different. So, no particular rationale except that I like having the whole mark-up show in the translation process. --w126jep (talk) 20:51, 5 November 2014 (EST)

OK. We can leave it that way, but I do wonder if other translators would prefer the same big-picture view. --Jomegat (talk) 21:14, 5 November 2014 (EST)

See also

Now I know why you were having trouble translating the See also template. It's because there was a "See also" page in the main namespace, and there was another in template namespace. The one in template namespace was imported from Wikipedia, and had a different purpose from the one I wrote in main namespace. I deleted the WP template and then deleted the Spanish one, but then saw that you had a lot of files using it, so I restored it again. However, I'm guessing it wasn't doing what you wanted? --Jomegat (talk) 20:56, 13 November 2014 (EST)

Well that makes sense, I guess. The WP Spanish template is used in all of the translated honors so far, but it really isn't doing what it's supposed to. The point of the "See also" is to show that the honor is a prerequisite for other honors, such as an Advanced honor or a series (like Camping Skills and Backpacking are needed before completing Outdoor Leadership). This is a great way to let Pathfinders know that once they have completed a certain honor, they are a step closer to completing other certain honors. I tried my best with the translation but I noticed that even the English version does not do what it's supposed to. For example, Campcraft is a prerequisite to many other Recreational honors, but it only lists Winter Camping. I wasn't sure at the time how to fix the code, much less how to go about translating it. I left it alone to come back to, but ended up doing a bunch of other stuff and never got to it again.

I'm glad you were able to figure out the trouble. I say go ahead and delete the templates in both languages. If you can figure out how to fix the English version so that it lists ALL of the honor sequences (maybe each has to be added manually?), then I'll see if I get the translation to Spanish going. --w126jep (talk) 22:21, 13 November 2014 (EST)

I wouldn't say that the See Also page is broken - it's more that it doesn't cover all the bases. It basically finds anything in the AYHAB/prerequisite/honor category. The Honor prerequisite template, adds any page that uses it to the proper category. Pages that don't use the prereq template wouldhave to be added manually. I took a quick look at Camp Craft, and found three more honors that link to it - but none of those use the honor prerequisite template. The fix is easy - just add those pages to the right category, and See Also will pick them up.

As for Plantilla:Véase también, I will go ahead and delete that. I'll take a crack at creating a Ver también, swiping the Spanish from the template you made. You will want to review it though! --Jomegat (talk) 18:12, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Good stuff, then. I guess we will have to go through and check out which honors are missing from the honor category to be added as prerequisites. JadeDragon might have more insight as he is actively working through the IA curricula and might have a few honors fresh in his mind. I will take a look at the Ver también when you finish it. --w126jep (talk) 20:01, 14 November 2014 (EST)

I think I understand the problem and the solution. As long as we use the Prereq template the honors get picked up correctly? I'm a guy, not a women :) Jade is my daughter. JadeDragon (talk) 20:11, 14 November 2014 (EST)

Oops! Sorry! I will say this, though, you and I have at least two things in common: We've both been mistaken for women on this wiki & we both have daughters named Jade. Nice! --w126jep (talk) 20:19, 14 November 2014 (EST)

LOL. On the Internet no one knows you are an eagle. Or a man. Or even a manly man. Yeah, the prereq template does do that automatically for us, but we might not want all the verbosity it adds. If you don't want that, just add the page to the category. See this diff for an example. --Jomegat (talk) 20:40, 14 November 2014 (EST)

IA Connections ::::::::two Jades :) I am experimenting with a template for http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Template:IAConnection tonight. Plan to tag each honor connected to IA between the header and the first requirement. I also thought about an IA icon we can use on the lists. JadeDragon (talk)

Class Strips in Spanish

I see what you did now, you moved it. We'll keep the discussion there then --w126jep (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2014 (EST)

Honor desc - new argument for translated pages

When you create a page translation, could you add another argument to honor_desc/es?: |primary=AY Honors/Geology.

But of course, put in the name of the honor that this one is translated from. I've been going through the ones you've done already and adding that. I thought we'd be able to leave that out and the new honor_desc template would have been able to figure it out, but that seems not to be the case (and I don't understand why). Without it, you will get a list of "see-also's" in English. With it, you will get the ones that exist in Spanish.

I had a bear of a time getting Plantilla:Véase también to work. It was not picking up the changes I had made to the English version. Found out (after much violent noggin' to wall action) that I had to re-mark the page for translation. That solved it.

BTW, if a page does not exist, the box will still appear, but it will not have any pages listed in it. Oh well. Maybe I can fix that later. Or maybe we just wait for that problem to go away. --Jomegat (talk) 21:49, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Ok, I will make sure to add the new argument. So I put the English version in the Primary argument, no language extension? (lol, noggin' to wall action) --w126jep (talk) 21:57, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Yes - the the See_Also and Honor_desc templates rely on that for finding the prerequisites. That's why if an honor is a prereq, the template will know that it is and create the see_also box - but then it can only list the Spanish versions that exist, since it's pulling the honorname out of the honor_desc/lang template. This approach really does preclude the possibility of a red link - I'd have to start over to make that happen. All translations will show up in the prereq category for a given honor, but the template only pulls out the pages for a single language. If I have to change it next month, it will take me at least a day to figure out how it even works again. --Jomegat (talk) 22:13, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Do I add this argument to all honors or only advanced levels or only basic levels? --w126jep (talk) 22:21, 25 November 2014 (EST)

It would be best to add them to all honors, but it really only needs to go into those that are prerequisites of others. The problem is, we don't know which existing honors will become prerequisites for new ones in the future. So it's best if the existing honor already has the bits in place to make this work. --Jomegat (talk) 22:34, 25 November 2014 (EST)

So just to make sure I have this right: I add the Primary argument to all honors; I add the English name, with no language extension; do I put the honor name even if it is an advanced level? For example, in Geology - Advanced, is the Primary the basic level or do I put the advanced level? --w126jep (talk) 22:41, 25 November 2014 (EST)

Yes, add the primary to all translated versions of any honor. It should be the page name of the honor you are translating, whether that is advanced or basic. For honors that have regional variants, it should be the page name of the disambiguation page. All honors should have one page that serves as its primary. The primary is the one that gets counted in the honor count logic, and it's the one that holds the prereq category (so all honors that have Geology as a prerequisite will belong to the AYHAB/Prerequiste/Geology category) --Jomegat (talk) 09:50, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Nevermind! - I found and fixed the bug that was preventing this from working automatically. Template:Honor_desc/es now pulls the primary name from the pagename correctly if no primary argument is given. So we do not need to supply one except in the case where the primary is not in the first three parts of the PAGENAME (which is not the same as the translated display name). Examples would be for regional variants of Christian Citizenship, etc. --Jomegat (talk) 12:44, 26 November 2014 (EST)

Translation Pause

Just in case anyone has been wondering, I have not been able to edit or translate much recently because my laptop's screen has cracked and the image does not show. Due to the holidays, I haven't had much time or budget to get it fixed yet. I can use other computers every once in a while but it is not easy to make the massive amount of edits and changes as before. Hopefully this will be fixed soon, but just for knowing's sake, translations might be limited for now. --w126jep (talk) 13:54, 14 December 2014 (EST)

Thanks for letting us know! I was wondering! --Jomegat (talk) 18:59, 14 December 2014 (EST)

So I tried making sone edits earlier using my phone, since my laptop is still out of commission. What a nightmare. I usually use lots of tabs in the browser and lots of keyboard shortcuts, to which I have none in a mobile browser. Then there's the small, tiny keyboard of the phone, to which I constantly have to go back and fix misspelled words due to my apparent giant fingers.

I had been hoping to get much done through the holidays translation-wise, but I'm still trying to save up the necessary amount to fix my cracked screen. Maybe a holiday gift might help remedy the situation ... we will see.

In the mean time, I'll do what I can when I find an available comluter.

p.s. writing this very message was a pain on the phone ...

--w126jep (talk) 16:19, 19 December 2014 (EST)

If you have an old CRT monitor lying about (or know someone who does), you should be able to just hook it to your laptop. I did that for a while when I had a broken screen. --Jomegat (talk) 16:23, 19 December 2014 (EST)

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don't have one. I have a friend's laptop now that I'm borrowing for a this week so hopefully I can find the time to make some changes. --w126jep (talk) 17:36, 5 January 2015 (EST)

Braille Question 4 Translation

http://www.investitureachievement.org/wiki/index.php/Adventist_Youth_Honors_Answer_Book/Outreach/Braille see question 4 translation issue. I'm pretty sure I'm correct based on my research but can you confirm? Thanks JadeDragon (talk) 16:00, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

Thanks for pointing that out. When I originally put up the translation, I was actually going off the Portuguese requirements, so I was trying to translate from Portuguese to Spanish to then English. The SAD finally provided a Spanish manual (all their new honors were originally only offered in Portuguese), and I was able to correct the requirements in both English and Spanish. --w126jep (talk) 17:08, 17 September 2015 (EDT)

Congrats

Congratulations on getting your Master's degree. :-) --Jomegat (talk) 10:29, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

Thanks! Took me a while to get it, but all worth it. Now it's going straight for God's work! --w126jep (talk) 10:34, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

Yes a Masters is a lot of work. Congrats! JadeDragon (talk) 10:42, 28 October 2015 (EDT)

Oral Hygiene Honor Token

Is there any way to get a better picture of this? It looks very blurry :( I generally save images as .png format, they tend to keep quality better than .jpeg.

Bluescifiworm (talk) 15:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Bluescifiworm,

This is the best image I was able to find for this honor. As I am sure you know, it is an SAD honor and therefore not easily available here in the NAD. This image was the only one I was able to find and it is from the SAD honors manual. I have not been able to find an image of the actual patch. There is a director in my conference who completed this honor and is requesting the honor patches. If it comes through, I will take a picture of the actual patch and upload it here. --w126jep (talk) 22:08, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, W126jep. My club recently completed this honor as well. If I get it soon, I can upload a picture of the patch :) Bluescifiworm (talk) 19:41, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi W126jep I feel like I'n necroposting - but just wanted to let you know I should have the actual Oral Hygiene patch in hand soon. It appears that you can order them through British Union Conference. I'll get a picture of it uploaded when I do.Bluescifiworm (talk) 19:40, 19 September 2021 (UTC)

Hi, Cailin! I uploaded an image back in 2017, but if you think you can find a more clearer or sharper image, go for it! --w126jep (talk) 00:05, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Spirit of Prophecy Template

Is there a template to quote EGW writings, just a there is a Bible verse template? By the way, is there a place to check what are the existing templates? Marc3 (talk) 11:18, 12 April 2018 (EDT)

There is currently not a EGW template, although that would make perfect sense. If you have experience creating templates and want to give it a shot, then have at it. You can make a sandbox to experiment and tweak until its just right. This link will give you a quick tutorial on how to use one.

I do appreciate the work and order you are giving the Spanish translations. Please remember not to change the actual wording of the requirements, whether in English or Spanish. The reason is that they are copyrighted material from the General Conference or the North American Division. The requirements posted on the Wiki are taken directly from their source material. This Wiki is also hosted and sponsored by the NAD and they have made this specific request.

If you do spot errors (which sometimes do occur) or can think of better translations, let me know and we can send them as recommendations through the proper channels. --w126jep (talk) 00:03, 13 April 2018 (EDT)

I'll try to create a new template for this, however I don't think it would be too different from the current Bible verse template ... any suggestions will be appreciated. Marc3 (talk) 09:25, 13 April 2018 (EDT)

Jamestown Honor

Thanks for the slight cleanup on code. I copied and pasted from another honor. I have not used a wiki in many, many years. Wikipedia used to delete all my pages so I gave up. :) --MacDowin (talk) 15:04, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

Covid Index

Are you OK with activating the Covid index on the front page? Do you agree with the deletions I made when I briefly had it live (see the history)? The idea there was to reduce the wall-of-text that I'm sure most people don't read. --Jomegat (talk) 23:25, 13 April 2020 (EDT)

Truthfully, I would prefer a link. Perhaps a large, over-sized link to stand out. I prefer the main page to showcase the main index with all the honors. --w126jep (talk) 07:14, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

That's fine with me. I'll create a page and add a link to it. I do think we need to reduce the wall-of-text we have on the front page. Maybe we should move some of that to its own "for more information" page and link to that. --Jomegat (talk) 17:01, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

That's not a bad idea. The large text is mostly for the regional honors note. What about making it collapsible? -- w126jep (talk) 17:02, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

Collapsible is even better. I'm also thinking of adding a sitenotice so that the covid link shows up at the top of every page. IIRC it can be dismissed. --Jomegat (talk) 17:18, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

Nope. Sitenotice isn't dismissable. Feel free to edit it Mediawiki:Sitenotice. --Jomegat (talk) 17:29, 14 April 2020 (EDT)

Shall we attempt an experimental translation?

Hey Jaceil, I've got Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Nature/Amphibians/Sandbox and Adventist Youth Honors Answer Book/Nature/Amphibians - Advanced/Sandbox working to my satisfaction, though I might still remove the TOC from honor_desc2 (and once we roll most of this out, we can remove it from honor_desc).

The links between them seem to work except that they take you to the live pages and not the sandbox pages, but I think that's OK. If you have time, maybe you could see if the translation features will work on those. I don't think we need a complete translation - just enough to see if this is going to cause trouble. --Jomegat (talk) 21:54, 19 October 2020 (EDT)

I see you made an attempt. I went in and made a few adjustments, but it has been a long time since I've tried using the translation software. I don't think we need a translation of the reqreq and ansreq templates. I guess we could, but the way they're set up now, I think they should do what we want - at least for en/es/fr. I failed to put the languages tag in the .../Requirements page, so it didn't offer me the button to view things in Spanish until I fixed that. I kept hitting the button at the very top and selecting it from there, but I'm sure you know what happened then - the interface turned to Spanish, and I was still getting the English pages. I'm not sure I did everything right, so after I pasted translations in for the first three requirements, I stopped. I don't know if we're supposed to mark those titles for translation or not. I don't want to make a big mess, but I'm OK with making a little one. :D --Jomegat (talk) 19:59, 20 October 2020 (EDT)

I started to translate, I didn't get very far as I was actually on a Zoom call at the same time... (the Zoom was stuff I'd heard before and I was trying not to get bored). I'll have to keep experimenting with it when I have some time. You should check out the sandbox from a mobile perspective as it looks interesting also. I'll keep translating and see if I dont hit any snags. --w126jep (talk) 03:11, 21 October 2020 (EDT)

I'm waffling on whether the requirements listed in the answer keys should be displayed in the blue box, or as section headers like before. I'm pretty sure we could do either. If they remain headers, the mobile view will collapse them, plus you can jump straight to a requirement from the TOC. --Jomegat (talk) 17:44, 21 October 2020 (EDT)

I like the fact that the mobile view collapses the answers. It makes it much easier to jump through the requirements. I think that is an important feature.

I haven't had enough time to check out the templates you created and how they link and how the pages are set up. I hope to be able to check it out more in detail this weekend and figure out the translation side also. -- w126jep (talk) 02:40, 22 October 2020 (EDT)

I'm not waffling on using headers to display the requirements anymore - mainly because I can't figure out how to make it work. It may well be impossible. We could encapsulate the answers to each requirement in a box as is done on the TOC. Then we'd want to decide whether the answers are collapsed by default or not. I think the template is in pretty good shape, but we will probably want to add an indentation level argument to it. We also might want to put requirement 11a in honor/Requirement/11/a instead of in honor/Requirement/11a. I'll need to play around with that some more before making a decision.

I've been working on a robot to extract the requirements from an honor and create the resultant pages in the wiki. The extraction part is manual right now, but once I create a file in the format the bot understands, it doesn't have any trouble creating the requirement pages from it. I should probably make the 11/a vs 11a decision before I do more bot work though, since that will affect it. --Jomegat (talk) 20:48, 22 October 2020 (EDT)

I think I like what it does now. I have headers for each requirement, but the header contents is just the requirement number. I can't embed the requirement text in the header. This also gives us an edit button. I also encapsulated each answer section in a collapsible box, and made requirements 11a and 11b live inside 11's box (and use the next level header size). --Jomegat (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2020 (EDT)

I see what you did with the Reqsubreq‎ template and I think that is a good solution. I do want to reiterate on how this will affect possible contributors. Will the answers section still be easily editable if we put them inside a collapsible box? It is hard enough with the Wiki set up as it is to get people to contribute, I don't want to add an extra step for them to have to know how to edit a template to include their own answers. --w126jep (talk) 11:45, 26 October 2020 (EDT)

Yes, I missed that. That template already has some Spanish/French in it, so the mechanism is already there. It just needs to be applied to the new place I added some English. The collapsible answer boxes default to expanded, so the edit button is as evident as it ever was. --Jomegat (talk) 19:29, 26 October 2020 (EDT)

Excellent on the edit part being easily visible. And touché on the French word for "Answers", I wouldn't have even thought to have looked it up. --w126jep (talk) 12:58, 27 October 2020 (EDT)

Where the Problems Are

I've found a couple of problems with the restructuring process. The first is just something to watch out for, but the second may take more effort.

AY Honor Currency is the first one I've run into that has variant answers - we have structured those pages so that we also have

• AY Honors/Currency (United States)
• AY Honors/Currency (Canada)

I decided to make a single set of requirement pages for this honor under the auspices of the primary page. When we start using the ansreq template on this (and others like it), we'll have to be sure we grab them from under the primary page. When we link to the requirements on that page (probably in the honor_desc template), we need to pay attention.

The second problem I've encountered is in the AY Honor African Lore honor. I didn't recognize the problem until I went to do a translation. In the Especialidad JA de Tradición africana version, the requirements are structured differently, specifically, the es version has tertiary requirements listed under 2b, whereas the English one just lists them all out within the secondary level. The code I've written to extract the requirements doesn't deal with tertiary requirements at all right now, and I may have to change that. Or we may need to just deal with them manually. But the important thing is that it's going to be pretty difficult to maintain two different structures (one with tertiary, one without), so I think we're going to have to make them the same.

Or maybe not... the tertiary requirements do exist in the English page, but they're embedded in the secondary, and they'd appear in the blue box that way if we translated them in the secondary, and they appear in the requirements page too. And then we'd have the tertiary headers in the answers. That could work. But I'd like you to weigh in on it. --Jomegat (talk) 00:21, 28 October 2020 (EDT)

How difficult would it be to add a tertiary level? As we approve honors, we're usually careful to make sure things like this with "2a" and "2b" don't happen. I think I structured all of the Spanish versions to not have this by making 2 primary something like "Do the following" and then including the secondary requirements. If we can keep the tertiary headers, I think that would be the ideal.

How will the variant answers affect for different divisions? Like the recent Biosafety? I hadn't thought of that either. --w126jep (talk) 02:01, 28 October 2020 (EDT)

By tertiary, I mean 2.b.ii. I can do it, and I plan to, but it'll take me an evening or two. The problem is that if a translated version uses tertiary, and the "source" version doesn't, there won't be a tertiary requirement page to translate.

As for honors with variant requirements, I don't think we'll have a problem. NAD Biosafety requirements will go under AY Honor Biosafety Requirements used by North American Division and the SAD version will go under AY Honors/Biosafety (South American Division)/Requirements. But this is why I'm taking it kind of slow. I think I've extracted the requirements from about two dozen honors so far. I need to see if I can find a bot to help with the translation process - because that's going to be tedious. If I can't get a bot to do it, I'll jump in and start doing it manually, using the already-translated requirements you've already provided. It would be easy to just create the pages as "regular" pages with an /es at the end, but then we won't be able to translate them at all unless we delete the page first.

When we chose the translation extensions, we found what was the best available tool for the job. If it caught on, someone may have written I could press into service. If not, I'm going to have to learn the MW API and brush up on python, or we're going to be in for a slog. We might need Marilyn's army. --Jomegat (talk) 18:17, 28 October 2020 (EDT)

So I'm trying to figure out where this restructuring leaves translation. Should I start making Spanish equivalents to the requirements pages? I don't think a bot would be capable of completing the task. --w126jep (talk) 01:04, 1 November 2020 (EST)

I think the structure is ready for translation, but don't feel as though you have to be the one to do it. You've already provided the language skill so that anyone who can figure out how the software works can do it just by copying your previous work. I was planning to launch into that myself, but of course I would welcome your help (and watchful eye). A bot should be able to do it, but I didn't find one. If I spend enough time toiling through the tedium myself it might be enough to drive me to create a bot. --Jomegat (talk) 08:44, 1 November 2020 (EST)

If you can find or build a bot, that would be super helpful, just like the English version is doing. -- w126jep (talk) 01:23, 2 November 2020 (EST)

Heredity

I'm trying to figure out what to do about Heredity. My inclination is to add an "Answer the following" top-level requirement for 3 and 4, "Mitosis" for 5, and "Meiosis" for 6. Five and six aren't really "requirements", but are rather something more like headings for a group of related requirements. I think an approach like this would preserve any "do requirement 5c of the Heredity honor" references that might be out there, though I;m pretty sure there's nothing like that out there. What do you think? --Jomegat (talk) 19:05, 2 November 2020 (EST)

This is a GC approved honor and the GC website takes care of this; we probably just never updated it. We probably need to notify AdventSource. -- w126jep (talk) 11:49, 3 November 2020 (EST)

Awesome. I should have thought of that. I'll fix it this evening. --Jomegat (talk) 13:42, 3 November 2020 (EST)

Math Skills IV

Requirement 3 of AY Honor Math Skills IV contains some impossible problems. Could you point me to the original? --Jomegat (talk) 21:27, 2 November 2020 (EST)

This is a link to the SAD Science & Health Honors Manual. It's on page 55 of 56. Maybe the way I typed it in the requirement isn't clear. They use the 'x' as a sign of multiplication and also as to 'solve for x', which makes it very confusing. -- w126jep (talk) 11:44, 3 November 2020 (EST)

That actually helped quite a lot. I'm pretty sure that "5x2" is 5x². I'll fix those this evening as well. --Jomegat (talk) 13:44, 3 November 2020 (EST)

It's a good thing that one was wacky, since that made me take a second look at it. My bot didn't carry the equal signs from the equations into the requirements. I fixed that by hand. I also noticed that same problem existed in Math III (and fixed that too). --Jomegat (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2020 (EST)

Yes, I think you're right. I wasn't able to make that out, and since I didn't really work out the problem, I didn't notice when I put it in. I'll make sure to fix the Spanish version also. --w126jep (talk) 02:38, 4 November 2020 (EST)

Especialidades JA/Arte de hacer tarjetas

Hey Jaceil - Card Making has not caught up to our February corrections yet, and requirement 2f has no translation. I have otherwise migrated all its requirements to the new Especialidades JA/Arte de hacer tarjetas/Requisitos page. --Jomegat (talk) 14:38, 26 November 2020 (EST)

All set! -- w126jep (talk) 15:04, 26 November 2020 (EST)

Thanks! --Jomegat (talk) 20:18, 27 November 2020 (EST)

Airplane Modeling

The airplane modeling honor is missing several sub-requirements under #4. --Jomegat (talk) 23:27, 27 November 2020 (EST)

Fixed them. So the Spanish version for subreqs after j never existed. No other place has those extra requirements in Spanish. I am not sure where those extra ones came from. Was there an update on this honor a while back? -- w126jep (talk) 22:14, 28 November 2020 (EST)

The edit history goes back to 2006 here (it might go further back on wikibooks), and that version shows those subreqs from back then. So it's not recent (depending on how you define "recent" of course).

After copying the translations for a couple dozen honors and no robotic solutions in sight, I had a big rethink of the approach. I sent out an email describing it, but no one has responded to it - which makes me think I didn't really send it out. The rethink is that I'm in the process of moving all of the requirements into the honor's honor requirements page and marking each individual requirement with section tags. Translating them all from one page is a ton faster, and I was able to extract them individually with no problem. Once I knew that would work, I made yet-another-robot to convert them all to single-page. Then my new laptop suffered a catastrophic fan failure, so it's out of commission and I'm back on my old laptop. I thought I had converted all of the honors to single-page reqs, but the count was way off - because a third of the files I had extracted are on my new, dead laptop, and the new robot was working on the files I already grabbed. Not a big deal, but it is rather inconvenient!

The new robot just subst's the individual honor requirements from the page they're on. Once I've subst'd all of them in on the honors I can change the reqreq template so it grabs them from their new home and then I can delete the 14K requirement pages.

Also - if you want to take a stab at making a nice looking version of Template:RequirementsHeader please do - I've done the mechanical parts already and it can extract any metadata from honor_desc that we might want. I learned new DPL tricks to pull out that magic. It's kind of cool! --Jomegat (talk) 22:53, 28 November 2020 (EST)

I saw the email. I think it would be easier to put everything on one single page for the requirements instead of having so many single pages for each requirement. Sorry about your laptop! But even though it will take time to repair it, there is no rush in the Wiki, as we are still experimenting and in trying to get things right. It would be nice, however, to have something almost ready to go by New Year's. But making everything work is more important. I'll check out the RequirementsHeader and see what I can do with it. --w126jep (talk) 23:33, 28 November 2020 (EST)

Thanks. Jonathan saw the email too and pointed out a mistake I made (and which I have now fixed). I went ahead and "translated" the Amphibians requirements to make sure that the AnswerRequirements template deals with es: User:Jomegat/Sandbox/es shows the results. That page is literally a cut and paste of the English version which should greatly ease our workload. --Jomegat (talk) 10:47, 29 November 2020 (EST)

AY Honors/Template

I noticed you added a translate tag to AY Honor Abseiling, so I added the same one to AY Honors/Template. The template page should not be marked for translation though since its purpose is so we can paste it in where a new honor's landing page goes, and I don't think we want translation unit tags there? FWIW, I had fun making the template. ;) --Jomegat (talk) 03:22, 15 December 2020 (CET)

What does <div class="mw-translate-fuzzy"> do? --Jomegat (talk) 03:25, 15 December 2020 (CET)